10. |
A 2019-06-26 18:44:39 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
匿名を条件に(警察に話す, etc.)
病気を理由に(解雇される, etc.)
データを根拠に(判断する, etc.)
勝利を目標に(練習する, etc.)
家を担保に(お金を借りる, etc.) |
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Comments: |
Marcus: My argument is that expressions that use this very common and ordinary structure (see examples above) aren't really worth adding unless they're idioms (or in some other way interesting).
結婚を前提に is certainly very common but it's also literal.
Jim: I still think the meaning would be obvious enough in context, but I'm not going to contest it any further.
---
I don't think it should be tagged as adv. |
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Diff: |
@@ -12 +11,0 @@
-<pos>&adv;</pos> |
9. |
A* 2019-06-26 12:01:24 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Reopen. |
8. |
A 2019-06-26 12:00:47 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
The thing that stood out with this expression was the "view to" and "in mind" associated with 前提 as this wasn't really what we or other JE dictionaries were saying (e.g. preamble; premise; reason; prerequisite; condition; assumption; hypothesis; given). That entry has now been extended, so the case is weakened a little, but I think that anyone approaching 結婚を前提に with the usual lexical resources would probably go for "prerequisite" or "premise". I think this can go in.
I'll approve it and reopen. |
7. |
A* 2019-06-26 08:58:47 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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150+ hits on twitter past 24 hrs for 結婚を前提に |
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Comments: |
I'm not proposing to add this because I think the particular structure of [noun]を[noun]に is uncommon or particularly
interesting. It's not a grammar point - it's just a very a common expression that happens to have this specific structure, so I
don't really understand the argument that you could replace 結婚 or 前提 with plenty of other words (with different meanings).
Yes, of course you could, but then it wouldn't be the same set phrase. |
6. |
A* 2019-06-25 14:38:33 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I just see it as a rather uninteresting example of a particular grammar point. You can swap out 結婚 and 前提 with so many different
words to create other expressions that I don't believe are any more or less noteworthy.
The meaning of 世界を舞台に is less obvious so I think it's easier to make a case for including it. From what I can see, the only
other similar entry we have is 憂さを晴らしに.
I'd prefer just to create an example sentence for 前提 which uses 結婚を前提に. |
(show/hide 5 older log entries)
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5. |
A* 2019-06-25 10:24:57 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Diff: |
@@ -13,0 +14 @@
+<gloss>with marriage in mind</gloss> |
4. |
A* 2019-06-25 08:18:55 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Jim:
結婚を前提とした 15030
Robin:
結婚を前提 63814
結婚を前提に 41855
cf.
結婚前提 17396
婚姻を前提に No matches
夫婦になることを前提に No matches
結婚することを前提に 107
結婚は前提に No matches
結婚を想定 209
結婚を仮定 No matches |
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Comments: |
Jim: I don't think "結婚を前提" would be a good option because it looks incomplete/grammatically incorrect
to me. I think it needs to be followed by either に or とする.
Robin: I really can't see how this is overly compositional. It's not composed of various elements and often
worded slightly different with other words/synonyms. It's well-known set phrase that invariably appears
with these two specific words, and this is by far the most common combination of them (i.e. over 結婚前提で
(付き合う) and 結婚を前提として/した). The fact that the very construction itself ([noun]を[noun]に) is
common just isn't relevant. We have hundreds of entries using common constructions like [noun]の[noun], and
10 of the [noun]を[noun]に variety. Only one of them, 世界を舞台に, is more common in the ngrams than this. |
3. |
A* 2019-06-25 01:59:04 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
This seems overly compositional to me.
The [noun]を[noun]に construction is extremely common. I see it all the time, especially with 理由 (e.g. "病気を理由に" - on the grounds of illness).
What makes 結婚を前提に worth recording? |
2. |
A* 2019-06-25 00:05:54 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
結婚を前提として 2820 <- a Tanaka example and one GG5 example
結婚を前提と 16870 |
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Comments: |
結婚を前提と should be there too? Or possibly just 結婚を前提 with a "usu. 〜に or 〜と" note? Those two make up almost all the usage of 結婚を前提. |
1. |
A* 2019-06-24 20:19:35 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
結婚を前提に 41855
結婚を前提 63814
結婚を前提にして 856
結婚を前提に付き合う608
結婚を前提に交際 1821
eij (as ~して、~交際 etc.)
4 gg5 examples
結婚を前提に交際する date sb □with marriage in view [with a view to marriage]
あの二人は結婚を前提にしての交際を宣言した The two announced that they were going out with each other with a view to getting married.
どうかお嬢さんと結婚を前提にお付き合いさせてください. I would like your permission to □see [go out with, spend time with] your daughter
with a view toward marriage.
結婚を前提に付き合う date with a view toward marriage |