16. |
A 2024-04-27 03:18:25 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Thanks for the comments.
We could have extended discussions on where and how to represent morphology and etymology, but these comments are NOT the appropriate forum. Please feel free to raise an issue in the Github forum if you wish.
https://www.edrdg.org/wiki/index.php/Editorial_policy#Issues_Forum |
15. |
A* 2024-04-20 15:36:48 Non
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Comments: |
This is strictly morphology that the reader can apply to their use of the language, for example: knowing it is made from ん and what ん derives from allows them to correctly predict the existence of ませぬ - or - if someone learns of ぬ through ません and learns from ぬ's entry its function/meaning and how it is morphologically added to other words, then they would be equipped to locate and understand every single instance of ぬ or ん they find from thereon, as well as to use it themselves. Is this not a benefit for the reader?
This is in line with the editorial policy that lists "where there is a derivational relationship between words that it is useful to highlight, e.g. between かっけー and 格好いい, or between オケる and 空オケ." as a cross-reference that can enhance the value of the entry; this is fundamentally the same as the given examples - and with ぬ being a productive morpheme, morphology notes and references would be even more useful.
Now, I do agree that it is not all etymology and/or morphology that should be added: here there is a positive impact for the learner's understanding and practice. Contrast this with something such as adding "changed over time from まゐらす to まらする, まする, culminating in ます" to the ます entry. The latter would be a truly useless historical etymology that does not help readers to understand what something means, how it comes to mean it, nor how to use it.
I understand that the dictionary is not here to teach morphology, but it is here to teach Japanese and morphology just cannot not be useful in such a highly agglutinative language - in fact, it is not only useful, it is required for its use: it is the necessity of morphology that led you to add "after the -masu stem of a verb" to this very entry, it is morphology that dictates we have separate verb classes and it is morphology that distinguishes verbs from adjectives and tells you how to use each.
If we are ignoring any mention of etymological and/or morphological information and concern ourselves only with self-contained semantic/functional minimalism, we might as well remove: the left half of the note in this entry along with all 3 cross-references, the cross-reference to 格好いい in かっけー, as well as any other similarly substantiated note or reference in any and all entries. We could even remove the tags for 動詞 and 形容詞 and neatly bundle them under a category for 述語 since that is the all-encompassing superset. Nonetheless, I think you will agree that would make the dictionary less useful as it would lose much of its power to teach usage - which directly affects ability to teach identification and thus, comprehension - and completely lose any information about derivative connections, all because of morphology and etymology.
Do you believe that usage, identification, and relations are not something that a cross-linguistic dictionary should seek to teach? Is it not what the reader seeks to learn? If you do think so, then what does it seek to teach? Raw semantic correspondence? If you give yourself the bother to think about these questions, consider: Every time someone conjugates something, they are engaging with morphology. Every time you add an [adj] tag to something, you are teaching them about it. |
14. |
A 2024-04-20 09:55:43 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Since we're not attempting to explain the etymology. |
13. |
A* 2024-04-19 05:56:32 Non
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Comments: |
How would the cross-reference to ん be redundant? As it is, there is no way for one to know that the ん in ません is the negative ぬ・ん from simply looking at this entry. |
12. |
A 2024-04-19 03:53:07 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I agree with Robin on the etymology, etc. The xref to ん is quite redundant. |
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Diff: |
@@ -10 +9,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん・3</xref> |
(show/hide 11 older log entries)
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11. |
A* 2024-04-19 02:56:52 Non
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Comments: |
Since there is no dedicated compound tag (the sometimes used 'expression' tag is rather vague), the lack of some form of etymology for ません will lead readers to mistakenly believe it to be one item when it is not; I do not see why not clarify its constitution if we are trying to inform readers as well as possible, it is trivia at the very worst and helps them to better understand the workings of the language at best. I would argue for the note's inclusion.
Independently of the debate on the etymology note, I believe we should include a reference to at least ん as it is a crucial part of the compound and still draws a clear boundary with ませ (As opposed to something such as でしょう or せえへん where the distinction between morphemes is less clear) |
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Diff: |
@@ -9,0 +10 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん・3</xref> |
10. |
A 2024-04-18 23:37:26 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
We only use aux-v for terms marked as 助動詞 in the kokugos. This is a 連語.
I don't think the morphology and added x-refs are needed. |
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Diff: |
@@ -8 +7,0 @@
-<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
@@ -10,2 +8,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2441300">ぬ・1</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん・3</xref>
@@ -14 +11 @@
-<s_inf>-nai stem of ~ます joined to negative ~ん; used as a polite negation</s_inf>
+<s_inf>after the -masu stem of a verb; forms the polite negative non-past tense</s_inf> |
9. |
A* 2024-04-17 23:10:27 Non
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daijr, daijs, meikyo |
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Comments: |
Edited notes to clarify morphology and removed the section calling it a non-past negative as knowing that it is made from ぬ should leave that clear enough.
Added [aux-v] tag as both ます and ぬ are 助動詞, however, as this is an inflected compound of two helpers the tag may be misleading.
Removed cross-reference to ない and replaced it with cross-references to ぬ・ん as it is the helper present in the word. |
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Diff: |
@@ -7,0 +8 @@
+<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
@@ -9 +10,2 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない・1</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2441300">ぬ・1</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん・3</xref>
@@ -12 +14 @@
-<s_inf>on -masu stem; negates a non-past tense verb</s_inf>
+<s_inf>-nai stem of ~ます joined to negative ~ん; used as a polite negation</s_inf> |
8. |
A 2020-08-25 07:07:55 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Diff: |
@@ -12 +12 @@
-<s_inf>on masu-stem; negates a non-past tense verb</s_inf>
+<s_inf>on -masu stem; negates a non-past tense verb</s_inf> |
7. |
A 2019-10-15 00:01:32 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
They should be aligned (apart from politeness). I had wondered about making ない does not/will not, but this is fine. |
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Diff: |
@@ -13,2 +13 @@
-<gloss>does not</gloss>
-<gloss>will not</gloss>
+<gloss>not</gloss> |
6. |
A* 2019-10-14 23:47:16 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Can't we simply the gloss to "not", as Marcus suggested? |
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Diff: |
@@ -12,0 +13 @@
+<gloss>does not</gloss>
@@ -14 +14,0 @@
-<gloss>does not</gloss> |
5. |
A 2019-10-14 04:23:18 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Align with 2257550. |
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Diff: |
@@ -8 +8 @@
-<pos>&exp;</pos>
+<pos>&suf;</pos> |
4. |
A 2019-07-16 04:31:59 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Trimming. |
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Diff: |
@@ -12 +12 @@
-<s_inf>suffixed to the masu-stem; used to negate a verb in the non-past tense</s_inf>
+<s_inf>on masu-stem; negates a non-past tense verb</s_inf> |
3. |
A* 2019-06-24 07:54:22 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Can be improved.
Would just "not" like ない be better?
exp right? |
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Diff: |
@@ -12 +12,3 @@
-<gloss>suffix used to negate a verb in the non-past tense</gloss>
+<s_inf>suffixed to the masu-stem; used to negate a verb in the non-past tense</s_inf>
+<gloss>will not</gloss>
+<gloss>does not</gloss> |
2. |
A 2013-06-04 08:01:04 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Diff: |
@@ -9,4 +9,4 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2210290">ます</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない・1</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない・1</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない・1</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2210290">ます・1</xref> |
1. |
A 2007-10-06 00:00:00
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Comments: |
Entry created |