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jmdict 1442650 Active (id: 2221931)
殿様 [news1,nf22]
【とのさま [news1,nf22] 】

[n] [hon]
▶ nobleman
▶ dignitary
▶ lord

Cross references:
	⇐ see: 2757280 お殿様【おとのさま】 1. lord; nobleman; daimyo; dignitary; master

[n] [hist,hon]
▶ feudal lord (of the Edo period)
▶ daimyo

Cross references:
	⇒ see: 1415080 大名 1. daimyo (Japanese feudal lord)

[n]
▶ man brought up away from the world
▶ arrogant man with little knowledge of the ways of the world

History:

13.	A 2023-02-15 16:28:53 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
	Comments:	Style alignment.
	Diff:	@@ -27 +27 @@ -<gloss>daimyō</gloss> +<gloss>daimyo</gloss>
12.	A 2023-01-08 20:41:07 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
	Comments:	OK as is.
11.	A* 2023-01-08 10:28:13 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
	Comments:	or arch?
	Diff:	@@ -24 +24 @@ -<xref type="see" seq="1415080">大名</xref> +<misc>&hist;</misc>
10.	A 2020-02-06 04:05:13 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
	Comments:	OK. I'm happy to leave this how it is now.
	Diff:	@@ -26 +26 @@ -<gloss>daimyo</gloss> +<gloss>daimyō</gloss>
9.	A* 2020-01-08 02:35:11 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
	Refs:	daij nikk
	Comments:	I'm going to reopen this. There's a big difference between being a 1) nobleman - a person part of the nobility who in most cases held little power, and 2) being a "powerful Japanese feudal lord" who "ruled most of Japan from their vast, hereditary land holdings" (enwiki). The meaning is different enough to qualify splitting in both Japanese and English. If the two meanings in English look too similar, that can be handled by making them more different This isn't some obscure little historical issue but the word is used with both meanings today. If somebody looked up the use of "tonosama" in hyakunin isshu decks (for one example of contemporary use of the word in the Heian sense meaning) and walked away with the understanding that the "tonosama" cards of those decks depict "powerful feudal lords", then we've done them a disservice.
	Diff:	@@ -15,0 +16,7 @@ +<misc>&hon;</misc> +<gloss>nobleman</gloss> +<gloss>dignitary</gloss> +<gloss>lord</gloss> +</sense> +<sense> +<pos>&n;</pos> @@ -18,5 +25 @@ -<gloss>lord</gloss> -<gloss>nobleman</gloss> -<gloss>dignitary</gloss> -<gloss>master</gloss> -<gloss>feudal lord</gloss> +<gloss>feudal lord (of the Edo period)</gloss>
(show/hide 8 older log entries)
8.	A 2020-01-07 19:17:02 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
	Comments:	there's also a difference between a nobleman and a lord and a dignitary and a master in english. but they've all ended up in one sense. we regularly combine glosses that have slightly different meanings. the question isn't whether there's a difference; it's whether the difference between the japanese senses is big enough to warrant splitting given that in english the two senses are highly similar gg5 combines the former sense 1 & sense 2 into a single sense, which--given the similarity of the glosses and the difficulty in telling them apart--seems perfectly reasonable to me (and Jim per earlier comments) in any case, this entry has been open for about a month with no further comment, so i'm closing it off for now. restoring "feudal lord" to sense 1 as per gg5 and restoring "daimyo"
	Diff:	@@ -21,0 +22,2 @@ +<gloss>feudal lord</gloss> +<gloss>daimyo</gloss>
7.	A* 2019-12-11 08:49:30 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
	Comments:	There's a difference between "tonosama" of the Heian period and "tonosama" in the Edo period. In the Heian period, a "tonosama" is any person part of the nobility, while in the Edo period, it's a daimyo. I think "daimyo/feudal lord" and "nobleman" are two quite distinct senses that should be kept apart.
	Diff:	@@ -20 +19,0 @@ -<gloss>daimyo</gloss>
6.	A 2019-12-11 02:19:38 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
5.	A* 2019-12-10 06:52:39 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
	Comments:	[I've kept looking at this, then finding it a bit much, but it needs to be addressed.] Like Rene, I really struggle to see a useful difference in these senses. I think it's best to combine them, as in GG5, and instead include the GG5/Koj second sense.
	Diff:	@@ -15,0 +16 @@ +<xref type="see" seq="1415080">大名</xref> @@ -18,0 +20 @@ +<gloss>daimyo</gloss> @@ -24,4 +26,2 @@ -<xref type="see" seq="1415080">大名</xref> -<misc>&hon;</misc> -<gloss>feudal lord (Edo period)</gloss> -<gloss>daimyo</gloss> +<gloss>man brought up away from the world</gloss> +<gloss>arrogant man with little knowledge of the ways of the world</gloss>
4.	A* 2019-11-26 17:46:50 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
	Comments:	based only on the english glosses, the distinction between sense 1 and sense 2 is not entirely clear IMO. it's supported by the kokugos, but gg5 combines those senses. for the remaining sense, gg5 offers "a man brought up away from the world". koj suggests "an arrogant man with little knowledge of the ways of the world" or similar.
3.	A* 2019-11-25 13:41:40 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
	Refs:	daij one more figurative sense that should probably be added too but I don't have the time right now.
	Comments:	would be great if we had the [hist] tag for both senses here
	Diff:	@@ -15,0 +16,8 @@ +<misc>&hon;</misc> +<gloss>lord</gloss> +<gloss>nobleman</gloss> +<gloss>dignitary</gloss> +<gloss>master</gloss> +</sense> +<sense> +<pos>&n;</pos> @@ -18 +26 @@ -<gloss>feudal lord</gloss> +<gloss>feudal lord (Edo period)</gloss>
2.	A 2012-11-16 10:03:15 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
1.	A* 2012-11-14 15:10:49 Marcus Richert
	Refs:	daijs (敬称)
	Diff:	@@ -16,0 +16,2 @@ +<xref type="see" seq="1415080">大名</xref> +<misc>&hon;</misc> @@ -17,0 +19,1 @@ +<gloss>daimyo</gloss>

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