| 6. |
A 2023-03-13 00:13:39 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 5. |
A* 2023-03-12 23:54:50 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
gg5 |
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Comments: |
News organisations use this word when reporting on a stabbing or someone brandishing a knife. I think "knife" should be a gloss. |
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Diff: |
@@ -16 +15,0 @@
-<gloss>cutting instrument (knife, dagger, etc.)</gloss>
@@ -17,0 +17,2 @@
+<gloss>cutting instrument</gloss>
+<gloss>knife</gloss> |
| 4. |
A 2023-03-12 07:29:52 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Probably best just to drop cutlery. |
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Diff: |
@@ -16 +15,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2140880">カトラリー</xref>
@@ -19 +17,0 @@
-<gloss>cutlery(only in ref. to knives)</gloss> |
| 3. |
A* 2023-03-12 07:05:10 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Between jisho.org's last snapshot(quite dated) and now, "Japanese Cutlery" was renamed to "Japanese Kitchen Knife".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_kitchen_knife |
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Comments: |
This is not about the meaning of the Japanese word. This is about the E->J direction, and the English word "cutlery", which 50 years ago in the U.S. broadly meant "kitchen knives", and no longer does. (and perhaps never did in Britain).
If you search "cutlery", you get two results:
1. This term 刃物, and "cutlery" with a big green sign (on jisho.org anyway) that says "common, use me, you can't go wrong here".
2. Then, among a bunch of rare katakana terms, you see カトラリー, not distinguished in any way.
Which to pick? I gave reverso examples of people doing this wrong. I did this wrong.
In English, the etymology of "cutlery" has "cut" and likely referred to knives. So, shouldn't it be reasonable to think that 刃物 could have also undergone such a transformation and now apply to other metal implements (or even plastic tableware by extension)?
I think this is an unnecessary source of errors when a few words could be added to sort this out. I don't know what those words would be, or the best way to insert them, but it seems like something could be done.
As long as "cutlery" is in the gloss ( which is fine ), I think the [xref] is critical, because 刃物 is the *wrong* word (E->J) for cutlery in many modern use cases.
If you're Japanese, incidentally, "cutlery" is probably a poor choice today for 刃物 for all the reasons above. |
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Diff: |
@@ -15,0 +16 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="2140880">カトラリー</xref>
@@ -18 +19 @@
-<gloss>cutlery</gloss>
+<gloss>cutlery(only in ref. to knives)</gloss> |
| 2. |
A 2023-03-12 04:20:40 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Daijr: 物を切断したり削ったりする，刃のついている道具。包丁・刀など。
GG5: a 「cutting [sharp] instrument [tool]; a knife; a dagger; a cutter; 〈集合的に〉 cutlery. |
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Comments: |
The references all have one sense (samples given). I think that's sufficient. |
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Diff: |
@@ -16,11 +16,2 @@
-<gloss>knife</gloss>
-<gloss>(object with a short) blade</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<gloss>edged tool (esp. knives, also chisels, scissors, etc.)</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<xref type="see" seq="2140880">カトラリー</xref>
-<s_inf>caution: 刃物 refers exclusively to knives, while "cutlery" may also refer to spoons, forks, and even plastic tableware</s_inf>
+<gloss>cutting instrument (knife, dagger, etc.)</gloss>
+<gloss>edged tool</gloss> |
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(show/hide 1 older log entries)
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| 1. |
A* 2023-03-11 08:50:53 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
カトラリー 217055
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/カトラリー#:~:text=食卓用のナイフ、フォーク、スプーンなどの総称。
https://www.wordsense.eu/刃物/
刃物 (はもの)
blade, edged tool, often a knife
刃物を持った男
a man holding a knife
刃物 glossed as "knife" (70+examples)
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-japanese/knife#刃物
Glossed as "blade" (70+ examples)
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-japanese/blade#刃物
刃物
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/刃物
刃物（はもの、英: bladed object）とは、刃がついていて物を切断したり切削したりする道具の総称[1]。刃という構造を持ち、何かを切断したり切削するための道具。「切れ物」とも言う[1]。
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutlery
Cutlery refers to any hand implement used in preparing, serving, and especially eating food in the Western world. It is more usually known as silverware or flatware in the United States, where cutlery usually means knives and related cutting instruments. This is probably the original meaning of the word. Since silverware suggests the presence of silver, the term tableware has come into use.
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/en/刃物/
a knife；〔総称〕cutlery
刃物で人を脅迫する
threaten a person with a knife
刃物ざんまいに及ぶ
come to bloodshed／resort to the use of knives
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/ja/dictionary/japanese-english/刃物
刃物
noun
(はもの)
物を切ったり削ったりする刃のついた道具
cutting tool , knife
刃物を振り回す
to wave a knife
Google news results (obvious references to knives in crimes... I supposed they could all be treated as an ambiguous "blade" or "bladed object")
* 刃物を持った男がいる」と１１０番通報があった
* 両親を刃物で殺害したとして、殺...
* 「胃の中を刃物で刺されるような経験したことのない痛み」
Difference between 刃物 and 日本刀 (the latter might "technically" be a 刃物, but 刃物 seems to carry the nuance of "tool", vs. "weapon". this seems to agree with wikipedia)
https://www.meihaku.jp/touken-qa/touken-qa-detail_5-1/#:~:text=日本刀と刃物の大きな違いは使用目的,刃物」に分類されます。
日本刀と刃物の大きな違いは使用目的にあり、「武器」として作られたのであれば「刀剣類」、「道具」である場合には「刃物」に分類されます。
Does 刃物 include weapons? A: Not usually, 刃物 ordinarily means tools
https://hinative.com/questions/23653722
「刃物」は武器を含めていう物ですか。刀や剣とか。それともやっぱり道具だけですか。
日常的な会話では、道具だけを意味しますね。武器は日常的な道具ではありません
What's the difference between 刃物 and ナイフ? 同じです
https://hinative.com/questions/15241735?feedbackable=true&pos=5&utm_content=search_questions_index&utm_medium=referral&utm_search_language_id=45&utm_source=hinative&utm_term=刃物
What is the difference between 刃物(はもの) and ナイフ
同じですよ。(⌒∇⌒)刃物は日本語でナイフ(knife)は英語です.
75 glosses of 刃物 as cutlery. Some are fine (if you manufacture knives, it's safe to call yourself a cutlery company on your own brochure). A number would be better with another term, some are *very* wrong.
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-japanese/cutlery#刃物
Clearly wrong E->J. Spoon is cutlery in English, but not 刃物:
Earlier, the spoon was the only piece of cutlery that was used for dining.
以前、スプーンで食事のために使用された刃物の唯一の作品でした。 |
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Comments: |
Though it is a commonly given gloss, we would not be alone in dropping "cutlery". Cambrige dictionary also omits this gloss, giving only "cutting tool , knife". I see wikipedia has recently followed suit. 刃物 used to point at English "cutlery". It no longer does, instead there is a page on カトラリー, with 刃物 orphaned with its more-limited meaning.
In some English-speaking regions/dialects, "cutlery" may be thought to be exclusive to knives, but this is not generally the case. Spoons, forks, and other tableware are now included.
Google, for example "plastic cutlery", プラスチック刃物 (the former returning forks and spoons, the latter being nothing of value). This leads to avoidable mistakes by people grabbing this as a "common" gloss for "cutlery". It's a common term for a blade or knife, but not for kitchenware.
As the current gloss appears, we foster mistakes like this:
"Specialising in fun cutlery for children including personalised cutlery, melamine plates cups and bowls."
パーソナライズされたカトラリー、メラミンプレートカップやボウルなど、子どもたちのための楽しい刃物を専門。
"Fun knives for kids!"
Originally wanted to strip the cutlery gloss entirely, and still wouldn't be opposed. But it is prevalent in the Japanese knife industry ("Seki Cutlery Festival").
The reason for splitting [1] and [2] into two glosses is the prevalence with which this is glossed, in practice, as either "knife" or "blade". (ie., these are the most-correct glosses in many contexts). When people see only "bladed object" or "metal tool" they contort themselves trying to form a translation, when they could just say "knife". For example, this poor tatoeba translation:
====
そのように刃物を振り回すことは危険だ。
It is dangerous to wield an edged tool in such a way.
Surely that should be (absent better context): "it is dangerous to wield a knife/[a blade] in such a way" |
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Diff: |
@@ -16 +16,11 @@
-<gloss>edged tool</gloss>
+<gloss>knife</gloss>
+<gloss>(object with a short) blade</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<gloss>edged tool (esp. knives, also chisels, scissors, etc.)</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<xref type="see" seq="2140880">カトラリー</xref>
+<s_inf>caution: 刃物 refers exclusively to knives, while "cutlery" may also refer to spoons, forks, and even plastic tableware</s_inf> |