| 7. |
A 2023-09-06 05:30:55 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
Or even "(being)". |
| 6. |
A* 2023-09-06 02:29:30 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
Oxford (be obliged): be indebted or grateful |
| |
Comments: |
adj-na indicates that the word is a 形容動詞, not that it typically takes な. A 形容動詞 doesn't stop being adjectival when it's used predicatively. There are quite a few 形容動詞 that are rarely used attributively.
That being said, I hadn't noticed that sankoku (in contrast to the other kokugos) has 幸甚 as a noun only. Also, I might have been wrong to assume that 幸甚に is adverbial in 幸甚に存じる. Nouns can take に in 〜存じる expressions.
Noun glosses are less elegant but I think 幸甚 is in fact functioning as a noun in all the examples in the JEs and kokugos.
There's only one sense here. I don't think "obliged" is any less correct than the other glosses. It's synonymous with "grateful" within the contexts in which 幸甚 is actually used. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -11 +10,0 @@
-<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
@@ -15,3 +14,4 @@
-<gloss>extremely grateful</gloss>
-<gloss>much obliged</gloss>
-<gloss>very happy</gloss>
+<gloss>being extremely grateful</gloss>
+<gloss>being much obliged</gloss>
+<gloss>being very appreciative</gloss>
+<gloss>being very happy</gloss> |
| 5. |
A* 2023-09-05 09:26:09 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
I like the glosses here, but I agree with Jim that placing [adj-na] at the front gives the wrong idea about usage. I imagine the goal of [adj-na,n] is to be consistent with adjective glosses, but really the glosses do not correspond to adj-na usage. 幸甚な母親 is not "an extremely grateful mother". "幸甚な人" doesn't even return google OR even a single book result.
So putting [adj-na] up front is in a way even more misleading.
As part of the big picture in thinking about this, is there any way you can imagine adding similar glosses (grateful, obliged, happy) to 幸い? They'd surely make a bigger impact there.
I still think there might be something to the idea of a dedicated [id] sense. The other problem here is that "幸甚" does not literally(or even figuratively) mean "obliged", and right now it kind-of looks like it does... Highlighting that the glosses are idiomatic might help with that. I realize this is not something that is currently done. |
| 4. |
A 2023-09-04 22:59:07 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
幸甚 80252
幸甚な 211 |
| |
Comments: |
My main concern with having "adj-na" prominent is that implies the use of 幸甚な, which is actually quite rare. |
| 3. |
A* 2023-09-04 14:58:50 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
adj-na is correct. It's a 形容動詞 that's only used predicatively or adverbially.
I don't think "usu. as ～です" is a helpful note, and 幸甚に存じます only accounts for a little over 10% of usage. It's difficult to explain how the word is used without cluttering the entry. I think a simple "usu. in letters" note is sufficient. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -10,0 +11 @@
+<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
@@ -13,4 +14,4 @@
-<s_inf>usu. as ～です, ～に存じます, etc.</s_inf>
-<gloss>(being) deeply grateful</gloss>
-<gloss>(being) much obliged</gloss>
-<gloss>(being) very pleased</gloss>
+<s_inf>usu. in letters</s_inf>
+<gloss>extremely grateful</gloss>
+<gloss>much obliged</gloss>
+<gloss>very happy</gloss> |
|
(show/hide 2 older log entries)
|
| 2. |
A 2023-09-04 04:03:53 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
幸甚 80252
幸甚です 53257
幸甚に存じます 9471
幸甚でございます 4722
幸甚である 2366
GG5 and other JEs don't attempt to gloss it; they just have ～に存じます, etc. examples. |
| |
Comments: |
Certainly not "adj-na". I think there's only one sense. Simplifying. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -12 +11,0 @@
-<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
@@ -14,13 +13,4 @@
-<gloss>great pleasure</gloss>
-<gloss>extreme good fortune</gloss>
-<gloss>deep gratitude</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<misc>&id;</misc>
-<misc>&form;</misc>
-<s_inf>usu. in written requests, as ～です</s_inf>
-<gloss>deeply grateful</gloss>
-<gloss>much obliged</gloss>
-<gloss>much appreciated</gloss>
-<gloss>very pleased</gloss>
+<s_inf>usu. as ～です, ～に存じます, etc.</s_inf>
+<gloss>(being) deeply grateful</gloss>
+<gloss>(being) much obliged</gloss>
+<gloss>(being) very pleased</gloss> |
| 1. |
A* 2023-08-30 01:03:29 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
頂ければ幸甚 11177 1.5%
Related expressions:
頂ければ幸い 613321 84.4%
頂ければ嬉しい 77540 10.7%
頂ければありがたい 18591 2.6%
頂ければ有難い 5733 0.8%
頂ければ幸せ 3525
https://context.reverso.net/translation/japanese-english/幸甚
...幸甚です =
if would be greatly appreciated if...
we would be deeply grateful if...
it is my sincere hope that...
here would like to say that he is very pleased that...
I am happy to... (quite the undertranslation of 誠に幸甚です)
we hope that...
For example:
幸い as grateful, pleased,
https://context.reverso.net/translation/japanese-english/幸い#grateful
https://context.reverso.net/translation/japanese-english/幸い#pleased
Idiomatic usage:
https://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=幸甚
幸甚である
be much obliged
sankoku:
「文」[手紙]非常に＜ありおがたい・幸せな＞こと。おいでいただければ幸甚に存じます
daijs:
［名・形動］（多く手紙文で用いて）この上もない幸せ。大変ありがたいこと。また、そのさま。「幸甚の至り」「幸甚に存じます」 |
| |
Comments: |
This expression, like 幸い and ありがたい, is principally used for making polite, written requests. I would be grateful if...
My precise edits are a placeholder, I'm asking for guidance/advice. [1] is what I think is consistent with jmdictdb practices. [2] is what I think is useful, but I think it should be clear that the glosses are idiomatic.
I have reversed [n,adj-na]. [adj-na] is quite rare, and sankoku doesn't even acknowledge it. By jmdictdb convention, this would seem to mean that all the glosses should be nominal. This isn't ideal, since this term (unlike 幸い), is basically restricted to letter-writing, where its usage is idiomatic, and will nearly always become an English adjective. Note that 幸い is already glossed with nouns, and basically shares all of the issues here.
The definition given by daijs and others is "extreme 幸せ, a state of extreme ありがたい".
We have
幸い:
happiness; blessedness; luck; fortune; felicity
幸せ:
happiness; good fortune; luck; blessing
有難い:
grateful; thankful; welcome; appreciated; evoking gratitude
有難い mostly works out ok because it *is* an adjective. But 幸い, by far the most common in requests (see ngrams), is missing all of the idiomatic glosses which should apply (grateful, thankful, appreciated). And neither term includes the common idiomatic equivalent "(much) obliged".
Usually jmdict is very thorough with offering potential glosses. But 幸い has always been particularly uninformative here:
読んでいただければ幸いです。 ("If you could read this, it is... [happiness; blessedness; luck; fortune; felicity]").
And this gives few clues for non-native speakers trying to translate into English.
Sometimes I think we could deal with these by adding [exp] entries with the copula. [幸甚だ][exp] = "much obliged" "much appreciated", etc... But we'll never pattern match all of the variations (だ・です・である・でございます、申し上げます), which suggests it would be more useful if the idiomatic meanings could live in the main entries somehow.
Right now it can be hard to give (well-delineated) idiomatic glosses for some very common Japanese phrases.
I'm not trying to start a campaign here. If we're fine as it is, I'm not pushing on this. I just stumbled in here when I realized the glosses for 幸甚 should (seemingly) all be nouns, and didn't know what to do with it. (it was arguably useful as it was, but I am a stickler for consistency) |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -10,0 +11 @@
+<pos>&n;</pos>
@@ -11,0 +13,6 @@
+<misc>&form;</misc>
+<gloss>great pleasure</gloss>
+<gloss>extreme good fortune</gloss>
+<gloss>deep gratitude</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
@@ -13,3 +20,7 @@
-<gloss>pleased</gloss>
-<gloss>obliged</gloss>
-<gloss>appreciative</gloss>
+<misc>&id;</misc>
+<misc>&form;</misc>
+<s_inf>usu. in written requests, as ～です</s_inf>
+<gloss>deeply grateful</gloss>
+<gloss>much obliged</gloss>
+<gloss>much appreciated</gloss>
+<gloss>very pleased</gloss> |