| 12. |
A 2024-01-03 17:36:46 Stephen Kraus <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Personally, I don't have any problem with recording weird gikun data like this. I think JMdict has some structural quirks that make them difficult to merge, though. If we added 運命 to the entry for 定め, we wouldn't be able to use the [gikun] tag on the reading because that tag is only true for 運命, not 定め. We'd also have to add some sense restrictions. It would be a little messy.
Since this entry, うんめい【運命】, only has one sense and one kanji form, and the sense happens to be the correct meaning for さだめ【運命】, we can add that gikun reading cleanly. Not every situation is as clean as this one, though. |
| 11. |
A* 2024-01-03 10:15:10 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Sorry to comment late on an approved/closed entry, I'm happy with the result. Just to reply to Stephen on-record in case the discussion ever comes up again:
It's not so much that 運命 might be randomly pronounced さだめ when reading(I agree, it wouldn't without furigana). Rather, it's the other way around: if you want to *write* さだめ in kanji, there are two commonly-recognized kanji orthographies: 1. 定め 2. 運命+furigana. (the latter less common, of course).
This is why I mentioned the alternative of adding 運命 to the さだめ entry instead. But I know this isn't how jmdict is usually used(J->E translation/decipherment). Whether さだめ is here, or 運命 is in the other entry, there is probably not much practical impact. |
| 10. |
A 2024-01-01 19:50:45 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 9. |
A* 2024-01-01 07:59:18 Stephen Kraus <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Sankoku also records gikun forms like そら【宇宙】. You do see things like this a lot in popular media, especially song lyrics. I wouldn't think anyone would read the word this way without furigana, though.
It's marked as a 熟字訓 in sankoku, so I think we'd be correct to use the [gikun] tag. |
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Diff: |
@@ -18 +18 @@
-<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf>
+<re_inf>&gikun;</re_inf> |
| 8. |
A 2024-01-01 01:11:55 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I think Brian makes a good case for さだめ being visibly associated with 運命, and an [ik] tag is probably the best approach. I guess [gikun] is an alternative. |
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(show/hide 7 older log entries)
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| 7. |
A* 2023-12-31 12:01:40 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Forrest Gump Famous Quotes (Japanese):
https://akieiga.com/forrestgump-meigen/
【名言12】僕らには皆、運命（さだめ）があるのか、それとも風に乗ってたださまよってるのか。たぶんその両方だろう。両方が同時に起こってる
I don’t know…if we each have a…destiny…or if we’re all just floatin’ around accidental-like on a breeze…but I…I think…maybe it’s both. Maybe both is happening at the same time.
sankoku:
Main entry さだめ：
１. 決まり。規定。
2. おきて
３「：運命・：宿命」
定まっている運命。さためごと
https://furigana.info/w/運命
うんめい 68.4% <-- obviously without furigana this is usually うんめい, and usually you won't have furigana
さだめ 22.6%
ほし 2.3%
https://furigana.info/w/宿命 <- the other entry mentioned by sankoku
しゅくめい 50.0%
さだめ 10.0%
しゆくめい 10.0% |
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Comments: |
I read the recent comments, and am going to propose that it *at least* make it in here is [ik](and/or that 運命 be added to さだめ・定め as another kanji form).
There is kokugo support for this. I'm not 100% certain on sankoku's markup on sense[3], but it seems to me to be acknowledging the kanji association explicitly. When I search for さだめ in the app, before opening the entry the summary reads: さだめ「定め・運命・宿命」. When searching for the kanji 運命, both うんめい and さだめ come up as results (and the sankoku app is pretty stingy on giving non-headword results).
If you search jmdictdb today for 運命, you will *not* see さだめ anywhere. If you search さだめ, you won't see 運命 anywhere. This arrangement is thus inconsistent with at least one kokugo(sankoku).
さだめ・運命 is not limited to anime. Also often in music, and I first encountered this in the Japanese subtitles to Forrest Gump(refs, with screenshots/quotes). I asked a Japanese person about さだめ・運命, and was answered that it was common enough, and merely related to nuance... (isn't that always the case with kanji selection).
It seems to me that the association between 運命 and the reading さだめ is strong enough that jmdict users would be better served by seeing it here. As with sankoku, I think that if someone *hears* さだめ and searches it, they should see both kanji forms. That can be solved by adding さだめ here, or adding 運命 to the さだめ・定め entry (or both).
I certainly would *not* propose merging 定め and 運命, even if they end up with quite a lot of overlap ;)
===
As mentioned, it seems like the main entry for さだめ・定め might benefit from 運命 (perhaps as[iK])． jmdictdb muddles things a bit mixing multiple readings and multiple kanji forms into single entries, but I think spoken language precedes written language here, so there is a word "さだめ" in Japanese, for which we have an entry, and one of its kanji forms is 運命(maybe as [iK], etc.), which we do not currently acknowledge. The more I think about this, the more I think that it is actually 運命 that should be added to さだめ. But there was already a conversation on this entry, and we already have a similar entry handled with [ik] (below), so I will leave my comments here.
===
For a similar example already in jmdictdb, I came here after encountering 理由 in an song lyric as わけ. We include わけ[ik] under りゆう・理由, also citing frequent furigana-ed use in the wild. Sankoku gives わけ/訳・理由 in an identical manner to さだめ・定め・運命. Perhaps 理由 should actually be a kanji form under わけ・訳, rather than (or in addition to) the way we are currently handling it. |
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Diff: |
@@ -14,0 +15,4 @@
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
+<reb>さだめ</reb>
+<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf> |
| 6. |
A 2023-07-28 12:11:42 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
運命/うんめい and 定め/さだめ both mean fate; destiny, etc. but さだめ is not a reading 運命. I suspect that in the text of that anime, it's being used as a form of explanatory furigana. |
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Diff: |
@@ -15,3 +14,0 @@
-</r_ele>
-<r_ele>
-<reb>さだめ</reb> |
| 5. |
A* 2023-07-28 11:52:37 Uzay Teker <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
運命 has 熟字訓 reading: さだめ as well. In an anime called Baki s02e04 at 00:07:55 the narrator reads it as such: 「食らうことは 別れること、呪わしき運命(さだめ）、凶暴なる食欲、沈静の中 原始の心は ただ痛みばかりが...」 |
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Diff: |
@@ -14,0 +15,3 @@
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
+<reb>さだめ</reb> |
| 4. |
A 2021-10-30 08:54:25 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 3. |
A* 2021-10-30 03:22:48 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
運命の 1621265
運命の人 246138
運命の出会い 141740
運命の彼女 48083
運命の赤い 43147
運命の赤い糸 42177
運命の日 41959
運命の人を 34112
運命の人と 34074
運命の出会いを 32824
運命の迷宮 31441
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/b77dc8b6bc2f2ee72d0d4b718140983296c88df2
自民は単独過半数（２３３議席以上）の確保は微妙で首相もピリピリしたまま、運命の１０・３１決戦を迎える。 |
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Diff: |
@@ -17,0 +18 @@
+<pos>&adj-no;</pos> |
| 2. |
A 2011-06-15 01:50:04 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Diff: |
@@ -20,0 +20,1 @@
+<gloss>lot</gloss> |
| 1. |
A* 2011-06-15 00:28:51
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Refs: |
新和英中辞典, ルミナス和英辞典 |
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Diff: |
@@ -19,0 +19,1 @@
+<gloss>destiny</gloss> |