12. |
A 2024-02-08 22:15:23 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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11. |
A* 2024-02-08 20:41:04 Stephen Kraus <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
〈可/べ〉きでは〈無/な〉い
Google N-gram Corpus Counts
╭─ーーーーーー─┬───────────┬───────╮
│ べきでは無い │ 18,958 │ 1.6% │ - add, sK
│ 可きではない │ 210 │ 0.0% │ - add, sK
│ 可きでは無い │ 33 │ 0.0% │
│ べきではない │ 1,197,884 │ 98.4% │
├─ーーーーーー─┼───────────┼───────┤
│ べきでは無く │ 248 │ 0.3% │
│ 可きでは無く │ 0 │ 0.0% │
│ 可きではなく │ 0 │ 0.0% │
│ べきではなく │ 74,530 │ 99.7% │
╰─ーーーーーー─┴───────────┴───────╯ |
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Comments: |
I didn't read the long discussion in this entry but I don't think we have a problem with these sorts of kanji forms anymore. |
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Diff: |
@@ -3,0 +4,8 @@
+<k_ele>
+<keb>べきでは無い</keb>
+<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf>
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
+<keb>可きではない</keb>
+<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf>
+</k_ele>
@@ -9,0 +18,2 @@
+<pos>&adj-i;</pos>
+<misc>&uk;</misc> |
10. |
A 2020-04-11 09:27:15 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I've responded to Rob directly. |
9. |
A* 2020-04-04 17:04:55 Rob Harwood <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Thanks for the explanations on your decision. And sorry for the long reply. I was just worried that if I didn't go into the whole thought process, it might seem like I was arguing for a very nit-picky thing, when really for me it's much more of a big-picture kind of question.
With that in mind, I notice that no one has yet responded to the point I made about JMDICT being the data source for many Japanese language learning tools, and even if data may not reflect popularity (as in the example of "(wa) katakana at top"), it may still be worthwhile for the sake of documenting the language itself.
All that said, I respect and accept your decision on this particular entry; but I'm still interested in hearing your thoughts/opinions about this more 'philosophical' point about how JMDICT should (or should not) attempt to support language learners, rather than just reflect current-day usage.
Is such discussion appropriate in these comments or is there another/better way I can ask about this kind of thing?
Jim, I'll look for your email address and try to email you. Thanks for the offer. [D'oh! I see it now at the top of the confirmation page.] |
8. |
A 2020-04-03 06:24:04 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Thanks, Marcus. I think that covers it, and I'll close this off now. I don't mind having the kanji form shown on the basic forms (GG5 has 可き in the べき entry), but I do think it is inappropriate to have them in the virtually-always-kana expressions.
Re この/此の/etc. I see Daijirin and GG5 have the 此の, but the other JEs don't.
Marcus: I've added a GitHub issue for [rare]
Rob: if you want to find out more about the n-grams, email me. They are not the counts you get from Google searches, which are almost useless. |
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Diff: |
@@ -4,3 +3,0 @@
-<k_ele>
-<keb>可きではない</keb>
-</k_ele>
@@ -13 +9,0 @@
-<misc>&uk;</misc> |
(show/hide 7 older log entries)
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7. |
A* 2020-04-03 02:15:54 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
すべき 10458604
す可き 2284 |
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Comments: |
Rob, note that the 可き surface form of べ
き is extremely uncommon. Neither Daijirin
nor Daijisen even include/mention it in
their main べき entries. I can't
personally remember ever encountering it
in the wild either. The question is maybe
if we're misleading learners by including
the surface form in our main べき entry -
you wouldn't have gone on this wild goose
chase if we hadn't. You shouldn't be using
the 可き form at all because I don't think
even most native speakers (readers) would
recognize it, but this is obviously not
made clear just from the [uk] tag. I've
suggested previously on our mailing list
to implement a [rare] kanji tag, maybe
something that's worth revisiting.
Also feel absolutely free to make
suggestions for our この/その/あの entries
without feeling the need to wait for the
resolution of this particular issue, but
do try and trim the length of your
arguments a little. ;) |
6. |
A* 2020-04-02 09:00:52 Rob Harwood <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Argh. It appears I may have 'replied to' / edited the wrong item. Please see my lengthy comment in edit ID 2063205. I've included the same [uk] addition in this edit, just in case. |
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Diff: |
@@ -12,0 +13 @@
+<misc>&uk;</misc> |
5. |
A* 2020-03-31 05:56:00 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
可きではない 210
べきではない 1197884
可きでは無い 33 |
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Comments: |
A comment on this. I don't mind having kanji in the べき entry itself to enable the source to be seen, but the kanji forms for this expression are so rare, as indicated by these Google n-gram counts, that I don't see much value in including them. Others may disagree, but I think they're best omitted. |
4. |
A* 2020-03-31 03:16:11 Rob Harwood <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
A quick google search for "可きではない" found 6000+ hits. I briefly scanned a few to make sure I didn't mess up the search, and they were legitimate. |
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Comments: |
Just adding a kanji version, to parallel 可き. This is my first edit, so if there are any problems, please let me know. I've been tempted to make some similar edits in the past, but wasn't sure about it, so this is a test for me.
The motivation to add this kanji reading is that I'm learning kanji via different sites that indirectly use JMDICT data, and having these additional kanji 'readings' would assist in this learning process. |
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Diff: |
@@ -3,0 +4,3 @@
+<k_ele>
+<keb>可きではない</keb>
+</k_ele> |
3. |
A 2017-02-10 11:56:08 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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2. |
A* 2017-02-10 11:38:26 Johan Råde <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
G n-grams 1197451 |
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Diff: |
@@ -5,0 +6 @@
+<re_pri>spec1</re_pri> |
1. |
A 2004-11-17 00:00:00
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Comments: |
Entry created |