| 11. |
A 2024-01-30 14:13:50 Stephen Kraus <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
We're now interpreting the [lsrc] tag on the first sense to apply to all senses. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -17 +16,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1146780">ローブデコルテ</xref>
@@ -19 +17,0 @@
-<lsource xml:lang="fre"/>
@@ -26 +23,0 @@
-<lsource xml:lang="fre"/> |
| 10. |
A 2013-07-06 03:03:27 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
"abbr" was a cut-and-paste error. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -25,1 +25,0 @@
-<misc>&abbr;</misc> |
| 9. |
A* 2013-07-06 01:31:37 Richard Warmington <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
I found that last reference I mentioned (in regard to the collarbone area). It was in Wikipedia.
日本ではまだ珍しく、この様な格好をして屋外にいたりすると下品な女性とみられる事が多い。 そのためか、鎖骨周辺を「デコルテ」と勘違いして表現する
ファッションアドバイザーなどの専門家も日本国内には急増している。
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/胸の谷間#.E3.83.87.E3.82.B3.E3.83.AB.E3.83.86
.
Of course, it's described as a 勘違, though. |
| 8. |
A* 2013-07-06 01:25:57 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
I think it's a fine line. The style we usually follow is that if an entry defines a state, then an adjective from it (e.g. adj-no) goes in the same sense. Now you are making it clearer that your sense 3 is more a clothing style, I agree it should go back.
Originally (in French, etc.) décolleté applied equally to the back. I wondered about the application in Japanese of デコルテ, and looked at Google images. Mostly front shots, but there were some of bare backs too. I felt that "part of a woman's chest and back exposed ..." was pretty safe - it doesn't say how much of each. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -9,1 +9,0 @@
-<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
@@ -23,0 +22,8 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
+<misc>&abbr;</misc>
+<lsource xml:lang="fre"/>
+<gloss>low-cut (neckline style)</gloss>
+<gloss>décolleté</gloss>
+</sense> |
| 7. |
A* 2013-07-06 01:11:08 Richard Warmington <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
I also question whether it's true that the Kojien definition implies that
"the exposed parts of ... the back" are included in デコルテ.
My copy of Kojien says 首筋や胸をあらわした (exposing the nape of the neck and
the chest).
.
Of course a low-cut dress *may* (or may not) reveal part of the back, but
my other sources (references 1, 2 and 3 under the heading SENSE #1 above)
suggest that デコルテ only refers to the part of the *chest* exposed by a low
neckline.
.
I even read on one webpage that many Japanese think of the デコルテ as just
the *collarbone* area, because in Japan people tend to frown on deep
necklines that expose the cleavage. |
|
(show/hide 6 older log entries)
|
| 6. |
A* 2013-07-06 00:30:17 Richard Warmington <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
I don't see why my proposed senses #1 and #3 should be considered as equivalent.
.
#3 was "low-cut" (adjective)
#1 is "the part of a woman's chest and back exposed by a low neckline"
.
#3 describes a style of garment: 胸の部分を大きく開けた
Ref: http://2info.projecteb.com/decolte/
#1 is a part of the body: 胸の部分
.
Or, in terms of Kojien's definition,
#3 corresponds to 首筋や胸をあらわした
#1 corresponds to 首筋や胸
.
It's analogous to the difference between "sleeveless" (style of garment) and "arms" (part
of the body):
The chest is exposed by a low-cut dress.
The arms are exposed by a sleeveless dress.
.
"sleeveless" and "arms" are not equivalent concepts.
.
In English, there is certainly a distinction between these two senses, in Encarta English
Dictionary for example:
1. décolleté (noun)
the upper part of a woman's chest, below the neck
2. décolleté (adjective)
a) having a low-cut front neckline: a décolleté dress
b) wearing a décolleté garment |
| 5. |
A 2013-07-05 20:49:44 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
| 4. |
A* 2013-07-05 13:14:32 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
Koj, Daijr, GG5, ルミナス |
| |
Comments: |
I feel your senses 1 and 3 are the same thing, and both 広辞苑 and 大辞林 seem to be saying it's the exposed parts of the chest and back, i.e. a noun which is used adjectivally. It's all a bit confused by the habit in English of using the French noun (décolletage) and adjective (décolleté[e]) interchangeably.
I suggest bringing it back to just two senses. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -9,0 +9,1 @@
+<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
@@ -12,1 +13,1 @@
-<gloss g_type="expl">the part of a woman's chest exposed above the neckline of her clothing</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">the part of a woman's chest and back exposed by a low neckline</gloss>
@@ -22,7 +23,0 @@
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
-<lsource xml:lang="fre"/>
-<gloss>décolleté</gloss>
-<gloss>low-cut (neckline)</gloss>
-</sense> |
| 3. |
A* 2013-07-05 10:31:36 Richard Warmington <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Diff: |
@@ -12,1 +12,1 @@
-<gloss g_type="expl">the upper part of a woman's chest, below the neck</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">the part of a woman's chest exposed above the neckline of her clothing</gloss> |
| 2. |
A* 2013-07-05 10:30:15 Richard Warmington <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
I guess "below the neck" is redundant in "the upper part of a woman's chest, below the neck".
Maybe make it "the part of a woman's chest exposed above the neckline of her clothing"? |
| 1. |
A* 2013-07-05 08:01:09 Richard Warmington <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
SENSE #1
Evidence for this "upper chest" sense, which is not found in the Japanese dictionaries I checked.
(It seems to be a relatively new, but common, sense)
1) デコルテ — de-(･･･からはなれた)+collet(首)で、「襟ぐり(が深い)」という意味のフランス語。現在では首から胸元にかけてを指す言葉として一般
的に使われています。
http://kotobank.jp/word/デコルテ
2) デコルテとは...現在では、首から胸元一帯の部分を指す意味として使われることが多いようです。
http://2info.projecteb.com/decolte/
3) デコルテとは「胸の部分を大きく開けた」という意味だと聞いたことがあります。それが、いつの間にか（女性の）首から胸元までの部分を指す言葉として
用いられるようになった。
http://prjeb.info/info/decorte.html
.
The reason that I added the explanation for sense #1 is that I checked numerous English dictionaries and
other English language sources, and found that some refer to this area of the body as "décolletée" and others
say it's "décolletage".
.
e.g.
> Re: décolleté
1) Encarta ~ décolleté: the upper part of a woman's chest, below the neck
2) By contrast, Webster has NO noun senses for décolleté (they say it's only adjectival.: "wearing a
strapless or low-necked dress; having a low-cut neckline")
.
> Re: décolletage
1) Fashion Glossary ...
Décolletage – the part of your body between your neck and bust line.
http://youlookfab.com/fashion-glossary/
2) Décolletage (or décolleté, its adjectival form, in current French) is the upper part of a woman's torso,
between her waist and neck, comprising her neck, shoulders, back and chest, that is exposed by the neckline
of her clothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Décolletage
[This confirms that both "décolleté" & "décolletage" are correct in English.]
3) But Wiktionary says only "A low neckline on a woman's dress, especially one that reveals or emphasizes her
cleavage." – i.e. not a part of the body
=======================
SENSE #2
My proposed sense #2 is Kojien's sense #3: ローブデコルテの略
Also, Wp has ローブ・デコルテのことを単に「デコルテ」と呼称する場合もある。
=======================
SENSE #3
1) ALC: デコルテドレス a decollete dress
2) デコルテとは本来ファッション業界で使われる用語で「胸の部分を大きく開けた」という意味だそうです。
http://2info.projecteb.com/decolte/ |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -9,0 +9,15 @@
+<lsource xml:lang="fre"/>
+<gloss>décolleté</gloss>
+<gloss>décolletage</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">the upper part of a woman's chest, below the neck</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<xref type="see" seq="1146780">ローブデコルテ</xref>
+<misc>&abbr;</misc>
+<lsource xml:lang="fre"/>
+<gloss>robe décolletée</gloss>
+<gloss>low-cut dress</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
@@ -10,2 +25,3 @@
-<lsource xml:lang="fre">decolletee</lsource>
-<gloss>low-cut</gloss>
+<lsource xml:lang="fre"/>
+<gloss>décolleté</gloss>
+<gloss>low-cut (neckline)</gloss> |