5. |
A 2023-11-18 21:29:32 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I don't think the x-ref is needed. |
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Diff: |
@@ -16 +15,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1379330">生地・きじ・1</xref> |
4. |
A 2023-11-16 06:44:38 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
This needs to be split into 布地/ぬのじ and 裂地, etc./きれじ. Should never have been merged. |
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Diff: |
@@ -9,11 +8,0 @@
-<k_ele>
-<keb>裂地</keb>
-</k_ele>
-<k_ele>
-<keb>切れ地</keb>
-<ke_inf>&rK;</ke_inf>
-</k_ele>
-<k_ele>
-<keb>切地</keb>
-<ke_inf>&rK;</ke_inf>
-</k_ele>
@@ -22 +10,0 @@
-<re_restr>布地</re_restr>
@@ -25,3 +12,0 @@
-</r_ele>
-<r_ele>
-<reb>きれじ</reb>
@@ -32,2 +17 @@
-<s_inf>usu. ぬのじ・布地</s_inf>
-<gloss>fabric (esp. for making clothing)</gloss>
+<gloss>fabric</gloss>
@@ -35,11 +19 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<stagk>裂地</stagk>
-<stagr>きれじ</stagr>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<gloss>traditionally patterned textiles (esp. for mounting scrolls, pictures, etc., or for adorning bags, clothing, etc.)</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<misc>&rare;</misc>
-<gloss>fabric scraps</gloss>
+<gloss>material</gloss> |
3. |
A* 2023-11-10 20:38:47 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Dictionary trivia!
「布地」は「ぬのじ」以外になんと読む?読めたらスゴい難読漢字、正解は?
https://trilltrill.jp/articles/2675215
「布地」を「きれじ」と読むなんて、想像もしていなかったのではないでしょうか。 <--- bet you never guessed きれじ!
daijs on 【切れ地/▽布地/▽裂地】:
1 織物。反物。また、その地質。「厚い―」
2 織物の切れ端。
3 袋物や鼻緒などにする特別の紋織物。
sankoku:
ぬのじ:衣服をつくるための布。生地
きれじ:
1)反物。織物
2)反物のきれはし
生地 8370062
布地 353903 95.6%
切れ地 192 0.1%
切地 2335 0.6%
裂地 13787 3.7%
Hinative users say 布地 = ぬのじ, きれじ = ??? never heard of it and/or "anal fissure"
https://ja.hinative.com/questions/13072539
Response #1:
ぬのじ、です。きじ(生地)、でもいいです。
きれじ、は違う意味になっちゃいます。
Response #2:
ぬのじ(布地)も使いますが、
服やバッグなどを作る材料としては、「きじ(生地)」が一般的です。
Response #3:
「きれ」にも布地・生地の意味はありますが、通じない可能性があります。
「きれじ」の言い方は聞いたことがありません。
「布地(ぬのじ)」もしくは「生地(きじ)」と言うのがいいと思います。
Response #4:
「布地(ぬのじ)」です。「生地(きじ)」という言い方もあります。「余った布」というニュアンスを含む「布切れ(ぬのきれ)」という言葉もありますが、布関係で「きれじ」という言葉は知りません。
「きれじ」は、一般的には「切れ痔(じ(ぢ))」(裂肛, anal fissure の通称)ですね。
Doesn't even *consider* きれじ in it's little "how-do-you-read" exercise(funny question, since ぬのぢ and ぬのじ are the same 読み方...):
布地の正しい読み方は「ぬのぢ」「ぬのじ」?
https://zatugaku-gimonn.com/entry4930.html
「布地」と「生地」の違いを分かりやすく説明していきます。
https://chigai-hikaku.com/?p=41496
「布地」は「ぬのじ」と読みます。
A page on 裂地 as きれじ.
https://sukiwa.net/fabric
裂地(きれじ)について
表装の裂地は、昔は法衣や装束を解いて使っていましたが、明治以降に表装裂地として新たに織られるようになりました。
裂という字
きれを辞書でひくと「切(れ)」と載っているように、裁断した(切った)織物を表具に仕立てるので、(裂くのではなく)「切る」の方が正式かと思われます。 ただし表具で使われる布の総合名詞として、現在は『裂(きれ)』と書くのが一般的になっています。
From the book: How to Make Handmade Wall Scrolls(2010)
"The size and color of the 裂地 kireji (Specialized Finished Scroll Cloth that has Urauchi) "
https://www.seidoshop.com/blogs/the-seido-blog/83-kakejiku-fabric-kireji
The fabric used to make a kakejiku is referred to as "kireji" (裂地). There are numerous types of kireji available in a variety of materials.Kireji's function, similar to that of a frame in Western painting, is to highlight the calligraphy or artwork; therefore picking the proper one is crucial to creating a beautiful composition.
https://nomurakakejiku.com/lesson_lineup/fabric
Kireji
The “kireji” is a type of cloth used for mounting. The price of the kireji influences the price of a “kakejiku” (hanging scroll) or its mounting. The selection of the kireji is an important element for a kakejiku, because the kireji must accentuate a main artwork.
http://y2-office.com/English_index.html
In general, cloth is also called KIRE in Japan. To begin with, KIRE means pieces of a thing. When we want to use cloth, we usually cut out the cloth of necessary length from a roll of cloth. So we came to call not only a piece of cloth but also cloth itself KIRE. Particularly, artistic fabrics with traditional design are called KIREJI. |
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Comments: |
I think this should probably be split for practical reasons. 布地 seems common-ish, reasonably-well recognized, and understood to be read as ぬのじ. Paul noted in 2016 that no common 和英 references provide きれじ as a reading. It does comes up in furigina.info (one example was a translation of Les Miserables, for context...). Under きれじ, sankoku lists 切れ地 *before* 布地. If you compare that with the ngrams, that would make きれじ a rare reading of 布地. So, きれじ seems like, perhaps, an [arch] reading for 布地.
reverso has *lots* of 布地, zero 切れ地;切地.
裂地, on the other hand, does exist on reverso and elsewhere, with a use that seems to reflect daijs' third sense of きれじ. Thus, we can't flag きれじ as [arch] or [io] or what-have-you on the entire entry. We could write some big [note] or something.
You can actually just google "kireji fabric" and get quite a lot in English.(for sense [2])
What I would recommend is to put 布地 as its own entry with ぬのじ and the note "esp. for making clothing". Then a separate entry for 裂地;切れ地;切地 as きれじ, including 布地 as [oK].
For context on why I'm making this suggestion, I wanted to know the difference between the readings, so I googled 布地 ぬのじ きれじ. I ran into another American who had the exact same question, no-doubt driven by this exact entry, and posed it to hinative. (That is the danger of these blended entries, with no guidance we're all on our own to figure out what readings are valid). Anyway, 4 consecutive responses all concurred that 布地 is read "ぬのじ", "きれじ" is unrelated (they were unfamiliar with the [arch] meaning or reading), and one going so far as to warn that the usual interpretation of きれじ would be:
「きれじ」は、一般的には「切れ痔(じ(ぢ))」(裂肛, anal fissure の通称)ですね。
In fact, if you google "布地", image search will return pictures of anatomy instead. So this is no joke.
Hence my motivation to improve the guidance here.
The ever-mysterious 生地 was often referenced as a more-common term for raw fabric.
I've crammed most of what I've found into this entry, you can see how unwieldy it ends up being. |
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Diff: |
@@ -9,0 +10,3 @@
+<keb>裂地</keb>
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
@@ -10,0 +14 @@
+<ke_inf>&rK;</ke_inf>
@@ -14,3 +18 @@
-</k_ele>
-<k_ele>
-<keb>裂地</keb>
+<ke_inf>&rK;</ke_inf>
@@ -28,0 +31,3 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="1379330">生地・きじ・1</xref>
+<s_inf>usu. ぬのじ・布地</s_inf>
+<gloss>fabric (esp. for making clothing)</gloss>
@@ -30 +35,11 @@
-<gloss>fabric</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<stagk>裂地</stagk>
+<stagr>きれじ</stagr>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<gloss>traditionally patterned textiles (esp. for mounting scrolls, pictures, etc., or for adorning bags, clothing, etc.)</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<misc>&rare;</misc>
+<gloss>fabric scraps</gloss> |
2. |
A 2016-02-02 04:22:56 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Yes! |
1. |
A* 2016-02-01 18:20:26 Paul Upchurch <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
研究社 新和英中辞典, prog, Luminous (all only give ぬのじ for 布地)
Kyoto n-grams, Google n-grams (布地 is far more common) |
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Comments: |
Moving [news1,nf22] to the ぬのじ reading. |
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Diff: |
@@ -19 +19,2 @@
-<reb>きれじ</reb>
+<reb>ぬのじ</reb>
+<re_restr>布地</re_restr>
@@ -24,2 +25 @@
-<reb>ぬのじ</reb>
-<re_restr>布地</re_restr>
+<reb>きれじ</reb> |