15. |
A 2023-04-19 22:34:23 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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14. |
A* 2023-04-19 09:22:59 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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Incredible. The *English* wiktionary page notes the historic phonetic spelling, but not the Japanese page (this just how unimportant this is...)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/山葵
Japanese
山葵 わさび Grade: 1 Jinmeiyō jukujikun
Etymology */wasapi/ → /wasabi/
First attested in the Honzō Wamyō (918 CE) with this kanji compound and phonetic spelling of 和佐比.
(The kanji form is not otherwise searchable on wiktionary)
No reference on the Japanese わさび page:
https://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/わさび |
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Comments: |
Thank you, I appreciate the consideration and effort, this looks good.
Wikipedia doesn't really "have" this form. It's not listed in the opening section as an accepted orthography. It is only noted as a historical artifact later in the article.
Headword: ワサビ(山葵[6]・山萮菜[7]、学名: Eutrema japonicum)は、...
History(名称): (918年)には、「山葵」の和名を和佐比と記している。同じく平安時代の『和名類聚抄』にも和佐比と記されている。
(山萮菜 was added randomly in 2021, I think that doesn't belong where it is either...)
和佐比 is not in nikk, it's not in daijs, it's obviously not in sankoku. I imagine it is omitted for a reason.
Sorry to repeat some numbers that are already in the notes, but:
わさび 1232009 75.6%
ワサビ 265338 16.3%
山葵 132404 8.1%
和佐比 106 0.0%
That's 106 of 1629857 occurrences, or ~1 in 15,000, or 0.0065%.
And of those 106 occurrences, almost all are from reference materials(such as the 植物名辞典) that will have 山葵 or わさび right next to it.
The odds of encountering 和佐比 *by itself* as an attempt by an author to communicate the concept of "wasabi" seems infinitesimally small, unless one is literally studying classical Japanese texts.
Just on the numbers, this would ordinarily be an obvious [sK]. I certainly agree that [sK] shouldn't be purely a numbers game - sometimes terminology of historical/at-least-marginally useful significance is helpful to display. This just doesn't appear to be one of those cases.
The reason that I put effort into this is that there is a cost to listing these forms in jmdict. "Wasabi" is obviously an extremely common term. Students of Japanese will study it. Every single person building a hand-made flashcard for わさび (paper or digital) off of this dictionary (or any of the many tools that use jmdict) has to decide for themselves if "和佐比" is worth learning(and if they lazily decide "yes", then they will waste additional time trying to learn a form that has gone mostly unused for hundreds of years).
[rK], unfortunately, is insufficient to make this kind of choice. 磯巾着 いそぎんちゃく "sea anemone" is [rK] at a little under 2%. It's still maybe worth learning, but rare enough that you probably should avoid it if you want a random Japanese person to understand your writing. (This is an example I happened to be studying yesterday. 樹懶 なまけもの "tree sloth" is another fun one)
Put differently, if you write 磯巾着, a Japanese person might think you are overly educated, and/or have an unhealthy fascination with kanji (or sea anemones).
If you write 和佐比 for わさび, they will probably wonder what's the matter with you. (Since it's phonetic, they can probably guess the reading though わ さ ひ・び).
The amount of time wasted by thousands of individual learners adds up to something. In exchange, what benefit does listing 和佐比 provide? This is what is unclear to me.
Here's a big, colorful, example flashcard/study resource generated straight out of this entry(second page of a "和佐比" search)
https://www.tanoshiijapanese.com/dictionary/entry_details.cfm?entry_id=28918&element_id=201696
I'm not pressing the point beyond leaving these thoughts. It can stay [rK] if that still feels appropriate to everyone. But that is my motivation for "disappearing" some of these very, very rare forms. |
13. |
A 2023-04-18 11:19:05 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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A* 2023-04-18 11:00:19 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ワサビ#名称
ワサビの名が付く近縁な植物としてセイヨウワサビ(ホースラディッシュ)があるが、加工品の粉ワサビやチューブ入り練りワサビなどでは、原材料にセイヨウワサビのみを使用したり、両方を使っていたりするため、日本原産のワサビを本わさびと呼び、これを使ったものを高級品として区別していることが多い。 |
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I think this is better. |
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Diff: |
@@ -28,0 +29,2 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="1121660">ホースラディッシュ</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2160220">西洋わさび</xref>
@@ -31 +33 @@
-<gloss>(any) blend of wasabi and horseradish</gloss>
+<gloss>horseradish (or any blend of wasabi and horseradish)</gloss> |
11. |
A* 2023-04-17 23:38:03 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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植物名辞典 (has 和佐比), as does Wikipedia.
GG5, 中辞典, etc. all add Japanese horseradish. |
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Suggesting a second sense to cover Brian's issue. If this sort of information is appropriate, it shouldn't be in the literal sense. |
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@@ -24,0 +25,7 @@
+<gloss>Japanese horseradish</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<misc>&col;</misc>
+<gloss>(any) blend of wasabi and horseradish</gloss> |
(show/hide 10 older log entries)
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A* 2023-04-17 14:33:54 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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Non-rhetorically, do you have any sources in mind where 和佐比 is actually used, where this surface form would be useful? I couldn't find any that were not Chinese or Korean(and those are also few in number). Since everything I find mentions it only in passing as a form from the 平安 period, this feels a little like an English-Japanese dictionary providing glosses for Chaucer's English.
On the other point, if the gloss were "wasabi", I wouldn't have any objection. "Everybody" knows that if you ask for wasabi in a restaurant, you're not going to get wasabi. It's just that peculiarity of this dictionary in listing scientific names next to things the feels wrong in this specific instance.
If you see わさび on anything anywhere in Japan, 95% chance it's mostly western horse radish(which is much cheaper). Anything that is *actually* wasabi is going to have to go out of its way to advertise "no, really, it is actually wasabi wasabi".
So, it's nitpicky, but the note on the gloss just seems factually incorrect. And I would prefer for a dictionary to be correct, if there is a way to do that we can be happy with. |
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A 2023-04-17 12:10:59 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Reverting to our standard style for these sorts of entries. I don't see a case for the "colloquially any wasabi/horseradish blend", but if that's needed it could be another sense.
I'd like to keep 和佐比 visible with its ateji tag. |
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Diff: |
@@ -10 +10,2 @@
-<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf>
+<ke_inf>&ateji;</ke_inf>
+<ke_inf>&rK;</ke_inf>
@@ -23,2 +24 @@
-<gloss>wasabi (defined as Wasabia japonica, colloquially any wasabi/horseradish blend)</gloss>
-<gloss>Japanese horseradish</gloss>
+<gloss>wasabi (Wasabia japonica)</gloss> |
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A* 2023-04-17 11:44:43 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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I invite another way to approach this. Seems silly to pretend that "wasabi" means "Wasabia japonica", as it almost never is. (I know all the kokugos, and wikipedia, define it this way, but lets be honest...) |
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@@ -23 +23 @@
-<gloss>wasabi (Wasabia japonica)</gloss>
+<gloss>wasabi (defined as Wasabia japonica, colloquially any wasabi/horseradish blend)</gloss> |
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A* 2023-04-17 08:56:23 Brian Krznarich <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
ワサビ 265338 66.7%
山葵 132404 33.3%
山萮菜 0 0.0% <-- wikipedia added this, for some reason or another. Seems possibly Chinese
和佐比 106 0.0% |
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Google shopping search for 和佐比 yields no results. If it's not even used for marketing...
Twitter search doesn't yield anything but people throwing out "和佐比" as trivia(and usernames).
Wikipedia mentions 和佐比 specifically as an orthography recorded from ~800~1200a.d.
*only* appearance in all of wikipedia for 和佐比 or 山萮菜 is the historical note on the wasabi page itself.
IME won't produce 和佐比 (MacOS)
amazon.co.jp can't even match 和佐比 with wasabi
yourei returns two results, and they are both copies of the same text, which is a historical reference to the heian period orthography:
1. ワサビの語源については、平安時代中期の『本草和名』には、「山葵」の和名を和佐比と記している。同じく平安時代の『和名類聚抄』にも和佐比と記されている。
If you search on google, you get some hits. They are:
1. Extremely historical texts
2. Mentions of the etymology of the modern term
3. People who have incorporated it on a lark into usernames on websites ("和佐比さんの手書きブログ")
I think on balance that it is counterproductive to display the form, especially for such a common term. (people should not learn or use it, and are unlikely to encounter it). |
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Diff: |
@@ -10 +10 @@
-<ke_inf>&ateji;</ke_inf>
+<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf> |
6. |
A 2020-12-05 16:57:35 Johan Råde <...address hidden...>
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wiki |
5. |
A* 2020-12-05 15:26:08 Opencooper
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gg5 |
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@@ -23,0 +24 @@
+<gloss>Japanese horseradish</gloss> |
4. |
A 2015-02-25 21:57:28 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Pretty rare. |
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@@ -9,0 +10 @@
+<ke_inf>&ateji;</ke_inf> |
3. |
A* 2015-02-25 10:21:32 Hendrik
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Text at hand
On the web:
http://www.weblio.jp/content/和佐比
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasabi
etc. |
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Even though it is nowadays usually written in hiragana or katakana, the kanji does show up on occasion... |
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Diff: |
@@ -6,0 +7,3 @@
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
+<keb>和佐比</keb> |
2. |
A 2012-10-10 04:43:40 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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1. |
A* 2012-10-09 11:23:41 Marcus
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http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ワサビ |
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dunno if the katakana version is more common than the hiragana
version, but I guess that's how it will appear now? |
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Diff: |
@@ -12,0 +12,4 @@
+<r_ele>
+<reb>ワサビ</reb>
+<re_nokanji/>
+</r_ele>
@@ -15,1 +19,1 @@
-<gloss>wasabi (Japanese horseradish)</gloss>
+<gloss>wasabi (Wasabia japonica)</gloss> |