17. |
A 2022-10-02 10:26:50 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
溺れて死ぬ 1401
溺れ死ぬ 4861 |
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Comments: |
Sitting here for quite a while. Maybe an xref is enough. |
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Diff: |
@@ -15 +15 @@
-<s_inf>usu. as 溺れて死ぬ etc. when referring to death through drowning</s_inf>
+<xref type="see" seq="2012460">溺れ死ぬ</xref> |
16. |
A* 2022-09-04 23:31:33 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Given that we have 溺れ死ぬ as an entry, I don't think the note is needed. With these glosses, the meaning is unambiguous. |
15. |
A 2022-09-03 21:06:45 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
We keep chewing on this one. |
14. |
A* 2022-09-03 15:04:24 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20220827/k10013790261000.html
海転落の孫助けようとした祖父溺れ死亡 |
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Comments: |
discussed in the FB translator's group recently (Aug 21).
this note is maybe a little crude and might need some work but something like it might be helpful? |
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Diff: |
@@ -14,0 +15 @@
+<s_inf>usu. as 溺れて死ぬ etc. when referring to death through drowning</s_inf> |
13. |
A 2020-07-24 07:31:27 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
OK |
(show/hide 12 older log entries)
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12. |
A* 2020-07-24 06:59:32 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/d9369f4a45806d591205c7905f7525d3ab1a9a14
image caption: "子どもは溺れる時、騒ぐわけではありません"
↑
borrowing the "sink below surface" from GG5 based on this. |
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Comments: |
"he's drowning!" doesn't refer to an inescapable death the same way "he's dying" doesn't - continuous tense indicates an
ongoing/incomplete process.
I think "to (nearly) drown" works better than having "to nearly drown" and "to drown" separately because that way, we don't on the one
hand rule out that it could mean "dying" (per the dictionaries), but it also clarifies that in general, it refers to something that can
end either way, and normally it will be specified if it really refers to death. (e.g. as in 溺れて亡くなる). I feel that with "to drown"
tacked on without qualifications, even at the end of the entry, learners might assume we've just formatted the entry poorly and then walk
away with "OK, it means to drown, got it"
Really the most accurate gloss is probably "to come into a state of drowning". |
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Diff: |
@@ -16,2 +16,2 @@
-<gloss>to nearly drown</gloss>
-<gloss>to drown</gloss>
+<gloss>to sink below the surface and become unable to breathe</gloss>
+<gloss>to (nearly) drown</gloss> |
11. |
A 2020-07-24 05:38:33 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
OK with me. |
10. |
A* 2020-07-23 17:27:03 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
meikyo:
泳げなくて水の中でもがき苦しむ。また、死んでしまう。
shinmeikai
泳げずに死ぬ(死にそうになる)。
gg5
1 〔水中で〕 (死にそうになる) nearly drown; sink below the surface (of water); (死ぬ) die by drowning; drown. |
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Comments: |
"to drown" seems fine to me.
"he is drowning" does not imply an inescapable death, and "he is nearly drowning" just sounds weird; whereas, "he drowned" definitely suggests that he died (though he might have been revived), whereas "he nearly drowned" suggests that he didn't
so to me: in present, 溺れる-->"to drown" seems more sensible; whereas in past, it could go either way, but generally 溺れる-->"to nearly drown" seems to be what is meant more often? |
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Diff: |
@@ -15 +14,0 @@
-<gloss>to be drowning</gloss>
@@ -16,0 +16,2 @@
+<gloss>to nearly drown</gloss>
+<gloss>to drown</gloss> |
9. |
A* 2020-07-23 14:22:32 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
But it doesn't mean "to be drowning" -
that's 溺れている. I think "to (nearly)
drown" is better. |
8. |
A* 2020-07-23 11:16:43 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I've just gone through about 50 examples of the drowning sense of 溺れる, and none have it meaning ending in death. In the cases where it ended in death, 溺れ死ぬ was used. If I had to summarize the meaning from them, it would be "to be downing/to be in the process of drowning." Nowhere did it seem to mean "almost".
So it seems that really those JEs and even Daijirin with its "また、死ぬ" are wrong or at best misleading.
I've suggested some slightly changed glosses, but I think basically we're on the same page. |
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Diff: |
@@ -15,2 +15,2 @@
-<gloss>to (nearly) drown</gloss>
-<gloss>to struggle underwater</gloss>
+<gloss>to be drowning</gloss>
+<gloss>to struggle in the water</gloss>
@@ -22,0 +23 @@
+<gloss>to be addicted</gloss> |
7. |
A* 2020-07-23 08:27:45 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
My informer disagreed it actually means
dying even when I read that bit to her, so
I don't want to give that "また..." too
much weight. I feel they're maybe
referring to it when it appears in "溺れて
死ぬ" anyway. |
6. |
A* 2020-07-23 05:20:34 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Daijr: 泳げないために、水中で死にそうになる。また、死ぬ。
GG5: 〔水中で〕 (死にそうになる) nearly drown; sink below the surface (of water); (死ぬ) die by drowning; drown.
ルミナス: 3人の男が川で*おぼれた Three men (were) drowned in the river. |
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Comments: |
Looks like it means both nearly die and actually die. Two senses? |
5. |
A* 2020-07-22 17:18:33
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Comments: |
oboreru (辞書形) means "to be (in the process of) drowning" though |
4. |
A* 2020-07-22 14:17:30 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
daijs, native informer |
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Comments: |
"to drown" means to "die", 溺れる doesn't.
but in 溺れて死ぬ it doesn't mean "to
nearly drown and die". so I think "to
(nearly) drown" is a good conpromise |
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Diff: |
@@ -15,3 +15,2 @@
-<gloss>to drown</gloss>
-<gloss>to nearly drown</gloss>
-<gloss>to sink below the surface (of water)</gloss>
+<gloss>to (nearly) drown</gloss>
+<gloss>to struggle underwater</gloss> |
3. |
A 2019-06-11 05:41:05 Johan Råde <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
G n-grams:
溺れる 188998
おぼれる 36024
溺れる者 8322
おぼれる者 1641 |
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Comments: |
not even close |
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Diff: |
@@ -15 +14,0 @@
-<misc>&uk;</misc> |
2. |
A 2011-10-26 02:50:15 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
putting like glosses together |
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Diff: |
@@ -16,0 +16,1 @@
+<gloss>to drown</gloss>
@@ -17,1 +18,0 @@
-<gloss>to drown</gloss> |
1. |
A* 2011-10-25 08:29:38 Nils Roland Barth <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
GG5, 大辞林, 広辞苑 |
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Comments: |
Add sense “actually drown”, alt gloss of “wallow in” |
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Diff: |
@@ -17,0 +17,1 @@
+<gloss>to drown</gloss>
@@ -24,0 +25,1 @@
+<gloss>to wallow in</gloss> |