| 32. |
A 2022-09-09 06:47:42 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 31. |
A* 2022-09-07 08:45:22 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I really don't think we can expect our users to understand that "as たって" (or "as ～たって") is supposed to refer to a verb in the past tense +って. I think we should be explicit.
Also, I think we should get rid of the たって entry, even if it's in the kokugos. I don't think it makes sense in a wa-ei dictionary. I'd much rather we covered that use here. I don't think anybody encountering [past tense verb]+って is likely to arrive at that entry rather than this one.
__
I think "indicates supposition" was a bad take (it was mine). |
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Diff: |
@@ -24,2 +24,2 @@
-<s_inf>as in たって, etc.; indicates supposition</s_inf>
-<gloss>if ... then</gloss>
+<s_inf>after a verb in the past tense</s_inf>
+<gloss>even if</gloss> |
| 30. |
A* 2022-09-06 00:17:18 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Emphasizing that たって is an example of this use of って. Does this work for you? Feel free to amend. |
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Diff: |
@@ -24 +24 @@
-<s_inf>as たって; indicates supposition</s_inf>
+<s_inf>as in たって, etc.; indicates supposition</s_inf>
@@ -29 +29 @@
-<s_inf>as かって; indicates a satirical or rhetorical question</s_inf>
+<s_inf>as in かって; indicates a satirical or rhetorical question</s_inf> |
| 29. |
A* 2022-09-05 09:56:11 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
sense 2 "as たって" seems to miss the mark to me. it's not たって its past tense verb +って. |
| 28. |
A 2020-10-14 01:42:22 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
OK. I'll put it back and reference the たって entry. |
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Diff: |
@@ -22,0 +23,6 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="2643980">たって・1</xref>
+<s_inf>as たって; indicates supposition</s_inf>
+<gloss>if ... then</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos> |
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(show/hide 27 older log entries)
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| 27. |
A* 2020-10-13 10:55:32 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Nicholas is right in that Daijisen and Daijirin don't include this in their って entries, but instead have separate たって
entries. We do have a たって entry for this usage likewise. Still, I think it'd be fine to keep that sense here while keeping the
たって entry as well - I think it'd be helpful not least because I don't think somebody trying to figure out what this use of っ
て means would be very likely to find their way to the たって entry. |
| 26. |
A* 2020-10-13 10:44:24 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Marcus, this edit removes a sense you added in 2012. I notice that both your examples do have たって, and it seems to be coing from 経って. MeCab says たっ + て. Do you have a view on the proposal? I'm rather neutral - it's up the front for historical reasons. |
| 25. |
A* 2020-10-09 04:13:05 Nicholas Patella <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Examples from the same sense in Daijirin 4.0:
"どうするかって、ぼくにも名案はないよ"
"早く行けって、それは無理だよ" |
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Comments: |
Regarding the "if ... then" sense. The examples given in the refs when this sense was added contain たって, not って. They're unrelated to the topical/quotational って. There's already an entry for たって.
The DJR definition given is describing the case where you raise the other person's speech as the topic and make a statement regarding it. I don't know if this needs to be explicitly defined separately from the topical/quotational usage of って.
The best I could come up with is "..., you say? (used to call something someone said into question and make a statement regarding it)". |
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Diff: |
@@ -20,5 +19,0 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<s_inf>indicates supposition</s_inf>
-<gloss>if ... then</gloss> |
| 24. |
A 2019-07-19 22:48:24 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
https://grammarist.com/usage/said/ |
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Comments: |
Actually "the said ..." was intended. Both can be found. |
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Diff: |
@@ -40,0 +41 @@
+<gloss>the said ...</gloss> |
| 23. |
A* 2019-07-19 10:14:04 Hiroshi Oliver <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Fixed a small grammatical issue. |
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Diff: |
@@ -41 +41 @@
-<gloss>the said ...</gloss>
+<gloss>said ...</gloss> |
| 22. |
A 2018-03-07 03:48:10 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 21. |
A* 2018-03-04 18:58:07 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Moved usage notes into [note]s. Was then forced to add
glosses to sense 1, 3 and 4.
Added "satirical" to sense 3 for clarification (「こんな
まずいもの食えるかって」)
_
This entry is also a great example why I think we should
allow for senses with only notes for glosses. (sorry for
beating a dead horse) |
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Diff: |
@@ -16 +16,5 @@
-<gloss>casual quoting particle</gloss>
+<s_inf>casual quoting particle</s_inf>
+<gloss>you said</gloss>
+<gloss>he said</gloss>
+<gloss>she said</gloss>
+<gloss>they said</gloss>
@@ -20 +24 @@
-<gloss>indicates supposition</gloss>
+<s_inf>indicates supposition</s_inf>
@@ -25,2 +29,2 @@
-<s_inf>as かって</s_inf>
-<gloss>indicates a rhetorical question</gloss>
+<s_inf>as かって; indicates a satirical or rhetorical question</s_inf>
+<gloss>do you seriously think that</gloss>
@@ -30 +34,4 @@
-<gloss>indicates certainty, insistence, emphasis, etc.</gloss>
+<s_inf>indicates certainty, insistence, emphasis, etc.</s_inf>
+<gloss>I already told you</gloss>
+<gloss>you should know by now that</gloss>
+<gloss>of course</gloss> |
| 20. |
A 2017-11-13 07:35:43 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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| 19. |
A* 2017-10-11 04:15:36 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Reopening, with a few small edits. |
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Diff: |
@@ -29 +29 @@
-<gloss>indicates certainty, insistence, emphasis etc.</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates certainty, insistence, emphasis, etc.</gloss>
@@ -34 +34 @@
-<gloss>someone named...</gloss>
+<gloss>the said ...</gloss>
@@ -39 +39 @@
-<gloss>says that...</gloss>
+<gloss>says that ...</gloss>
@@ -44 +44 @@
-<gloss>I hear that...</gloss>
+<gloss>I hear that ...</gloss>
@@ -49,2 +49 @@
-<gloss>points to a term being defined</gloss>
-<gloss>means</gloss>
+<gloss>as for the term ...</gloss>
@@ -54,2 +53,2 @@
-<s_inf>equiv. of は</s_inf>
-<gloss>as for (topic marker)</gloss>
+<s_inf>equiv. of は topic marker</s_inf>
+<gloss>as for ...</gloss> |
| 18. |
A 2017-10-11 04:00:01 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Daijr, GG5 |
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Comments: |
I don't mind the additional senses (GG5 has 8) but I don't think they should go in front of the ones that were there already.
Editing for style and consistency. I'll approve this, then reopen for a while. |
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Diff: |
@@ -15 +14,0 @@
-<s_inf>abbr. for と and other similar combinations</s_inf>
@@ -17,27 +15,0 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<s_inf>abbr. for という</s_inf>
-<gloss>someone named...</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<s_inf>abbr. for と言っている</s_inf>
-<gloss>says that...</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<s_inf>abbr. for と聞いている</s_inf>
-<gloss>I hear that...</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<s_inf>abbr. for とは、というのは</s_inf>
-<gloss>points to a term being defined</gloss>
-<gloss>means</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<s_inf>same as は particle</s_inf>
-<gloss>as for X</gloss>
-<gloss>topic marker</gloss>
@@ -58,0 +31,26 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>abbr. of という</s_inf>
+<gloss>someone named...</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>abbr. of と言っている</s_inf>
+<gloss>says that...</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>abbr. of と聞いている</s_inf>
+<gloss>I hear that...</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>abbr. of とは, というのは</s_inf>
+<gloss>points to a term being defined</gloss>
+<gloss>means</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>equiv. of は</s_inf>
+<gloss>as for (topic marker)</gloss>
+</sense> |
| 17. |
A* 2017-09-09 14:42:43 Scott
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Refs: |
gg5 koj daij |
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Comments: |
It's a start. |
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Diff: |
@@ -15 +15 @@
-<s_inf>abbr. for と, というのは and other similar combinations</s_inf>
+<s_inf>abbr. for と and other similar combinations</s_inf>
@@ -16,0 +17,27 @@
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>abbr. for という</s_inf>
+<gloss>someone named...</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>abbr. for と言っている</s_inf>
+<gloss>says that...</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>abbr. for と聞いている</s_inf>
+<gloss>I hear that...</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>abbr. for とは、というのは</s_inf>
+<gloss>points to a term being defined</gloss>
+<gloss>means</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>same as は particle</s_inf>
+<gloss>as for X</gloss>
+<gloss>topic marker</gloss>
@@ -30 +57 @@
-<gloss>indicates certainty, insistence, etc.</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates certainty, insistence, emphasis etc.</gloss> |
| 16. |
A 2013-11-02 06:18:29 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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| 15. |
A* 2013-11-01 05:50:39 Marcus Richert
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Comments: |
I based it on daijs "３ （「かって」の形で）反語の意を表す。「こんなまずい
もの食えるか―」「だれが言うことを聞くか―」"
but irony was probably a poor translation for "反語", maybe
this is better? |
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Diff: |
@@ -26,1 +26,1 @@
-<gloss>indicates irony</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates a rhetorical question</gloss> |
| 14. |
A* 2013-10-28 21:47:59 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I'd struggle to come up with one. I see Daijisen has "こんなまずいもの食えるか", which is more commonly seen as "こんなまずいもん食えるか" - from the examples around of that passage it's anything but ironical. |
| 13. |
A* 2013-10-28 10:03:24 Konstantin Gundev <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Please add an example of って illustrating [3][prt] [as かって] indicates
irony. I could not find one anywhere. Thank you very much. |
| 12. |
A 2012-11-12 06:36:04 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 11. |
A* 2012-11-12 04:54:14 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
daijs:
"３ （「かって」の形で）反語の意を表す。「こんなまずいもの食えるか―」「だれが言
うことを聞くか―」
４ 自分の気持ちを主張する意を表す。「そんなこと知ってる―」「わかってるよ、もう言う
な―」→たって〔接助〕" |
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Diff: |
@@ -23,0 +23,9 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>as かって</s_inf>
+<gloss>indicates irony</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<gloss>indicates certainty, insistence, etc.</gloss>
+</sense> |
| 10. |
A* 2012-11-10 01:08:12
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Comments: |
Hi, I understand that って can also be a sentence-final particle with a similar meaning to よ. |
| 9. |
A 2012-10-22 06:57:16 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 8. |
A* 2012-10-22 01:50:54 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
eij:
"「どうして先生に抗議しないの？」「そんなことしたって内申書にキズがつくだけだよ」
Why don't you protest against the teacher?" "It will only
leave a black mark on my record."
"おい、怒鳴るのはやめろよ！そんなことしたって、この子は泣き止まないぞ。
Hey, don't yell at him. That won't make him stop crying." |
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Comments: |
Well spotted. I've preliminarily copied the gloss from the -
ば entry, though the usage seems a lot more restricted.
Daijs doesn't gloss it as a conditional but like some kind
of a topic marker: ”２ 相手の質問・命令・依頼などを受けて、それを話題とし
て示す意を表す。…と言われても。「今さら変更する―、急に困るね」「どうするか―、
決まってるだろ」”
Daij also have quite a few more senses (7 in daijr, 8 in
daijs). |
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Diff: |
@@ -18,0 +18,5 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<gloss>indicates supposition</gloss>
+<gloss>if ... then</gloss>
+</sense> |
| 7. |
A* 2012-10-22 01:21:01
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Comments: |
Hi, my understanding is that in certain contexts ～って can signify a conditional. |
| 6. |
A 2012-07-23 06:03:50 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Makino & Tsutsui DBJG P 510. |
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Comments: |
Since Makino & Tsutsui say it's simply a colloquial version of と, it's probably best to reference that. |
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Diff: |
@@ -14,1 +14,2 @@
-<s_inf>abbr for というのは and other similar combinations</s_inf>
+<xref type="see" seq="1008490">と・4</xref>
+<s_inf>abbr. for と, というのは and other similar combinations</s_inf> |
| 5. |
A* 2012-07-21 10:08:52 Francis
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Comments: |
No change to the above.
It may help to have a cross-link with the following in order to obviate the need for a fresh search to find what the main entry is short for, i.e., [note="abbr for というのは]:-
ってのは (exp) (See って) means; is; as for
Also, with regard to the note "and other similar combinations", I am wondering whether that loose comment can be firmed up with proper links. |
| 4. |
A 2012-05-27 05:22:32 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
No comment, so I'll close this off, and add it to というのは. |
| 3. |
A* 2012-05-25 02:04:31 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I'm quite comfortable adding ってのは to the dictionary, but I suspect it should be added to the と言うのは entry rather than here.
I've been looking through the usage of ってのは and というのは in the examples in GG5 (there are quite a few of each), and I'm starting to suspect there is a different nuance with ってのは. |
| 2. |
A* 2012-05-24 17:53:22 Francis
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Comments: |
I did not want to amend the above, but often in text [as demonstrated by the mass of results on Google] "ってのは" is used in much the same way as the above and, in context, equals "というのは". Your [A] references also show quite a few examples. Could "ってのは" be included in this entry to assist the searcher? One piece of text which I was reading was "一人っきりってのは". Helpfully, you have the first part [一人っきり], but not the last part.
If I am in the wrong road on this one, then a correct entry would be very helpful. |
| 1. |
A 2006-07-09 00:00:00
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Comments: |
Entry created |