26. |
A 2021-12-14 01:51:19 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
Bulk convert ling to gramm
-*- via bulkupd.py -*- |
|
Diff: |
@@ -12 +12 @@
-<field>&ling;</field>
+<field>&gramm;</field>
@@ -18 +18 @@
-<field>&ling;</field>
+<field>&gramm;</field> |
25. |
A 2020-09-07 23:23:27 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
I think it's best with the qualification. |
|
Diff: |
@@ -19 +19 @@
-<gloss>auxiliary verb</gloss>
+<gloss>auxiliary verb (in languages other than Japanese)</gloss> |
24. |
A* 2020-09-07 21:36:03 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
i think the parenthesized info should stay. i'd be fine with "(in other languages than Japanese)", but just "(in other languages)" works for me too |
23. |
A* 2020-09-07 14:24:43 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
I don't like comments etc. that reference a previous sense, i.e. "(in other languages)" is a reference to sense 1's "(in Japanese)".
It's probably not needed at all, but if it should stay, I think it should be (in other languages than Japanese)" |
|
Diff: |
@@ -19 +19 @@
-<gloss>auxiliary verb (in other languages)</gloss>
+<gloss>auxiliary verb</gloss> |
22. |
A* 2020-09-07 12:52:56 dine <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
Then the [expl] is no longer necessary. The [see] can be omitted too, since we face a choice between 補助動詞 ("auxiliary verb (in Japanese)") and 付属語 ("dependent word").
I wonder if sense 1 can be just "bound auxiliary (in Japanese)". Some 助動詞 like ます and た are words in traditional Japanese grammar but suffixes to westerners, so it's better to sidestep the issue. |
|
Diff: |
@@ -12 +11,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1514640">補助動詞</xref>
@@ -21 +19,0 @@
-<gloss g_type="expl">verb forming the mood, tense, etc. of other verbs</gloss> |
(show/hide 21 older log entries)
|
21. |
A 2020-09-07 12:19:56 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
|
Refs: |
Daijr |
|
Comments: |
Yes, I've come around to the view that avoiding "auxiliary verb" for sense 1 is probably best. |
|
Diff: |
@@ -14,2 +14,2 @@
-<gloss>auxiliary verb (in Japanese)</gloss>
-<gloss g_type="expl">inflecting dependent word</gloss>
+<gloss>inflecting dependent word (in Japanese)</gloss>
+<gloss>bound auxiliary</gloss> |
20. |
A* 2020-09-06 06:59:35 dine
|
|
Comments: |
What about
[1][n][fld=ling]
inflecting dependent word (in Japanese); bound auxiliary
[2][n][fld=ling]
auxiliary verb
Reason 1: In Japanese 助動詞 is not a subset of 動詞 and "auxiliary verb" is a mistranslation. Some 助動詞 are more like adjectives.
Reason 2: We do not follow traditional PoS labels exactly, so there's no need to make the translation agree with our PoS labels.
For example, V-ない、たい、らしい are traditionally labeled 助動詞, but we label them [suf] and [aux-adj]. |
19. |
A* 2020-09-05 01:19:32 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
Reopen. |
18. |
A 2020-09-05 01:19:11 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
I'm resetting this to the original two senses, but dropping the note as Rene suggested. I'll close & reopen. I think we should stay with the two senses. |
|
Diff: |
@@ -11,0 +12 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="1514640">補助動詞</xref>
@@ -13,2 +14,8 @@
-<s_inf>in Japanese esp. bound</s_inf>
-<gloss>auxiliary verb</gloss>
+<gloss>auxiliary verb (in Japanese)</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">inflecting dependent word</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<field>&ling;</field>
+<gloss>auxiliary verb (in other languages)</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">verb forming the mood, tense, etc. of other verbs</gloss> |
17. |
A* 2020-09-03 21:32:24 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
i prefer it as two senses as well. it might not need the examples in the note though |
16. |
A* 2020-09-01 06:10:03 dine <...address hidden...>
|
|
Refs: |
Wikipedia: 言語学でいう助動詞(じょどうし)とは、動詞と同じような形態を持つが、他の動詞と結びついて相、法などの文法機能を表す語である。
日本語の「-て _いる_」や「-て _おく_」など、英語の can や will などがある。
the distinction is not so clear |
|
Comments: |
the two-sense version was too verbose and looked terrible in WWWJDIC
if one wants to keep the two senses distinct it's better to translate sense 1 differently, such as "inflecting auxiliary (in Japanese)" |
15. |
A* 2020-09-01 05:14:05 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
|
Refs: |
Daijirin: (1) 国語の品詞の一。付属語で活用のあるもの。用言や他の助動詞に付いて、これにいろいろな意味を加えて叙述を助けたり、名詞その他の語について、これに叙述のはたらきを与えたりする。その表す意味によって、受け身・自発・可能・尊敬・使役・打ち消し・過去・完了・推量・意志・希望・伝聞・様態・断定・比況・丁寧などに分類する。動辞。はたらくてにをは。
(2) ヨーロッパ諸語で、もと独立の動詞であった語が、他の動詞を補助してムードやテンスなどを表すはたらきをなすようになった語。たとえば、英語の shall, will などの類。 |
|
Comments: |
I like it better the way it was, with two senses reflecting that 助動詞 means different things when referring to Japanese grammar and European languages. This distinction is quite clear in Daijirin, and cutting back to one sense loses it.
In February Dine wrote: "daijr and nikk have two senses because the definition of "auxiliary verb" is different in traditional Japanese grammar and western grammars". I think it's more that 助動詞 is used differently when discussing those languages. |
14. |
A* 2020-08-31 08:36:30 dine
|
|
Diff: |
@@ -13 +13 @@
-<s_inf>in Japanese usu. bound</s_inf>
+<s_inf>in Japanese esp. bound</s_inf> |
13. |
A* 2020-08-31 07:44:28 dine <...address hidden...>
|
|
Refs: |
https://www.japanesewithanime.com/2019/11/auxiliary-verbs.html
http://www.japaneselanguageguide.com/grammar/auxiliary-verb.asp |
|
Comments: |
In practice "auxiliary verb" may refer to both 助動詞 (bound) and 補助動詞 (free); it's better to simplify the issue |
|
Diff: |
@@ -12 +11,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1514640">補助動詞</xref>
@@ -14,9 +13,2 @@
-<s_inf>e.g. ます, ない, た</s_inf>
-<gloss>auxiliary verb (in Japanese)</gloss>
-<gloss g_type="expl">inflecting dependent word</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<field>&ling;</field>
-<gloss>auxiliary verb (in other languages)</gloss>
-<gloss g_type="expl">verb forming the mood, tense, etc. of other verbs</gloss>
+<s_inf>in Japanese usu. bound</s_inf>
+<gloss>auxiliary verb</gloss> |
12. |
A 2020-07-21 08:11:09 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
11. |
A* 2020-07-21 07:52:12 dine <...address hidden...>
|
|
Refs: |
daijr: 付属語で活用のあるもの
daijs: 付属語のうち、活用のあるもの
nikk: 日本語で付属語のうち、活用のあるもの |
|
Comments: |
align with 付属語.
Note that 助動詞 is not a subtype of 動詞 in traditional Japanese grammar; Samuel E. Martin translates it as "inflected particles". |
|
Diff: |
@@ -16 +16 @@
-<gloss g_type="expl">inflecting suffix or enclitic</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">inflecting dependent word</gloss> |
10. |
A 2020-03-07 06:05:40 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
No comments. Closing. |
9. |
A* 2020-02-27 01:09:27 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
|
Refs: |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitic#Enclitic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_verb |
|
Comments: |
I rather like Dine's suggestion, which seems a neat way to handle this term. |
|
Diff: |
@@ -11,0 +12 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="1514640">補助動詞</xref>
@@ -13 +14,9 @@
-<gloss>auxiliary verb</gloss>
+<s_inf>e.g. ます, ない, た</s_inf>
+<gloss>auxiliary verb (in Japanese)</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">inflecting suffix or enclitic</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<field>&ling;</field>
+<gloss>auxiliary verb (in other languages)</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">verb forming the mood, tense, etc. of other verbs</gloss> |
8. |
A* 2020-02-04 03:43:16 dine <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
daijr and nikk have two senses because the definition of "auxiliary verb" is different in traditional Japanese grammar and western grammars:
https://kotobank.jp/word/助動詞-80527
What about
[1][n][fld=ling]
auxiliary verb (in western languages); [expl] verb forming the mood, tense, etc. of other verbs
[2][n][fld=ling]
auxiliary verb (in Japanese); [expl] inflecting suffixes or enclitics[note="e.g. ます, ない, た"][see=補助動詞]
I think giving "auxiliary verb" as the first translation would solve the PoS-labeling issue.
(Yahoo mailing lists are blocked in China so I can't participate in discussion) |
7. |
A* 2020-01-25 17:50:55 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
Reopening.
As mentioned below, this is a matter for the mailing list. |
6. |
A 2020-01-25 17:50:05 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
also i'm removing the added sense from October, which i accidentally approved when i closed this entry. |
|
Diff: |
@@ -15,5 +14,0 @@
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<field>&ling;</field>
-<gloss>inflecting suffix (in Japanese school grammar)</gloss>
-</sense> |
5. |
A* 2020-01-25 17:49:00 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
Hi. I think this issue needs to be raised on the mailing list. One entry in the dictionary is not the place to discuss/decide how the dictionary's various PoS will be labelled. |
4. |
A* 2020-01-25 17:33:33 Dine2019 <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
In modern linguistic terminology, it seems that suffixes attached to verbs or
adjectives to form their inflected forms (e.g. English -ing) are called
"inflectional suffixes", and those that have inflect forms themselves
"inflecting suffixes". If so, 助動詞 are better translated as "inflecting
suffixes" because (1) inflectional suffixes that do not inflect themselves (such
as て and ば) are called 助詞 and (2) です is a 助動詞 but we wouldn't consider 本で
す an inflection of 本.
As for labeling issues, I suggest that we use two sets of POS labels, one for
Japanese school grammar and one for modern linguistic analysis. For example, we
can mark ます an auxiliary verb in Japanese school grammar and an inflectional
suffix in modern linguistics, です an auxiliary verb in Japanese school grammar
and a copula in modern linguistics, て an inflectional suffix in modern
linguistics but a conjunctive particle in Japanese school grammar, etc. |
|
Diff: |
@@ -18 +18 @@
-<gloss>inflectional suffix (in Japanese)</gloss>
+<gloss>inflecting suffix (in Japanese school grammar)</gloss> |
3. |
A 2020-01-20 20:58:47 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
open for months, so i'm closing. if we ever resolve the PoS-naming issues, we will revisit the translation |
2. |
A* 2019-10-25 04:22:48 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
|
Comments: |
i would prefer not to alter this entry until we figure out some ongoing PoS-labelling issues regarding aux-v, aux, etc.
whatever we decide to call the japanese-language sense, it should be listed first and its name should correspond to the name of the appropriate PoS label |
1. |
A* 2019-10-25 03:41:17 Dine2019 <...address hidden...>
|
|
Refs: |
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/助動詞 |
|
Comments: |
国文法の助動詞≠西洋文法のauxiliary verb |
|
Diff: |
@@ -14,0 +15,5 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<field>&ling;</field>
+<gloss>inflectional suffix (in Japanese)</gloss>
+</sense> |