| 15. |
A 2016-11-21 22:06:41 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Interesting frequencies. All my refs put 空しい in front of 虚しい, apart from GG5 which only has 空しい. Tanaka has two examples with 空しい and the other 6 use kana. I think the word is common enough to keep the "P", so I'll tag 虚しい. |
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Diff: |
@@ -5,0 +6 @@
+<ke_pri>spec1</ke_pri>
@@ -13,0 +15 @@
+<re_pri>spec1</re_pri> |
| 14. |
A* 2016-11-21 13:26:45 Johan Råde <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
G n-grams:
虚しい 194875
むなしい 141237
空しい 99437
KM n-grams:
虚しい 7159
むなしい 5927
空しい 5561 |
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Diff: |
@@ -4,0 +5,3 @@
+<keb>虚しい</keb>
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
@@ -7,3 +9,0 @@
-</k_ele>
-<k_ele>
-<keb>虚しい</keb> |
| 13. |
A 2014-11-17 00:40:58 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Probably okay to close, I'd say. |
| 12. |
A* 2014-11-14 21:56:52 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Reopening. |
| 11. |
A 2014-11-14 21:56:25 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
Daijrin, Koj |
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Comments: |
I can't see any good evidence that sense 3 is restricted to 虚しい, indeed if it is, then it has to be a separate entry as it would break the 2/3 rule to have it here. Neither of the refs above show that that meaning is restricted to the 虚しい surface form, in fact 1642360 has 空しくなる first.
What I propose to do is drop the restriction and notes (effectively putting it back to where Rene proposed it a few days ago), approve it, then reopen to see if any hard evidence emerges to justify a further change. |
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Diff: |
@@ -17 +16,0 @@
-<s_inf>usually 空しい</s_inf>
@@ -24 +22,0 @@
-<s_inf>usually 空しい</s_inf>
@@ -31 +28,0 @@
-<stagk>虚しい</stagk>
@@ -33 +30 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1642360">虚しくなる</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="1642360">空しくなる</xref> |
|
(show/hide 10 older log entries)
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| 10. |
A* 2014-11-14 06:46:20 Matt <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
NTC's New Japanese English Character Dictionary" (1993) usage
notes. |
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Comments: |
Took out my gikun suggestion based upon what appeared to be
popular opinion that idiosyncratic gikun should not appear
appear in dictionaries. I do appreciate the discussion it
stimulated though. Added usage notes and restricted use of
3rd sense to 虚しい based upon NTC's New Japanese English
Character Dictionary" (1993) usage notes. |
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Diff: |
@@ -11,4 +10,0 @@
-<k_ele>
-<keb>曠空い</keb>
-<ke_inf>&iK;</ke_inf>
-</k_ele>
@@ -21 +17 @@
-<s_inf>むなしい is gikun reading for 曠空い found in Meiji version of The Bible</s_inf>
+<s_inf>usually 空しい</s_inf>
@@ -27,0 +24 @@
+<s_inf>usually 空しい</s_inf>
@@ -33,0 +31 @@
+<stagk>虚しい</stagk> |
| 9. |
A* 2014-11-13 20:46:28 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
and once again, i'll note that the few hits that are obtained all seem to be from the same source. |
| 8. |
A* 2014-11-13 20:45:09 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
thousands?
"曠空く(むなし)" gives me exactly zero hits, as does "曠空く(むなしく)".
"曠空(むなし)" gives me 44 real google hits
"曠空(むな)" gives me 9 |
| 7. |
A* 2014-11-13 18:25:02 Matt <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Rene, when you think about it, why would 曠空く get you
any hits? Since it is uncommon gikun the reading should
be given in parenthesis when it is used. You should
always search for gikun this way, "曠空(むなし)" this way
"曠空(むな)" or this way "曠空く(むなし)" (which will give
you thousands of real hits). Unless it is well known
gikun and only ever read with the gikun reading. |
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Diff: |
@@ -12,0 +13 @@
+<ke_inf>&iK;</ke_inf>
@@ -20 +21 @@
-<s_inf>むなしい is gikun reading for 曠空い found in Meiji period literature</s_inf>
+<s_inf>むなしい is gikun reading for 曠空い found in Meiji version of The Bible</s_inf> |
| 6. |
A* 2014-11-13 17:48:25 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
for the record, 曠空く gets 60 "real" google hits (and at first glance, all of them seem to be related to this one bible translation) and 0 ngrams |
| 5. |
A* 2014-11-11 10:11:03 Matt Bloedel <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Rene, you'll get a lot more hits on google if you try
searching under the ku form 曠空く. |
| 4. |
A* 2014-11-11 08:03:15 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
i am still not convinced that 曠空い is necessary or helpful. as i said, it gets one google hit (http://dqm.s198.xrea.com/patio-s-huri-/read.cgi?no=3379&l=2), which appears to be a recently written story. aozora bunko and project gutenberg and the like have a large number of old texts available online, but 曠空い apparently does not appear in any of them.
if--as far as we can document--it is only found in a single meiji-era reference (=文語訳(明治訳)舊約聖書), i don't think it can rightly be said to be "found in Meiji period literature", and i don't think it needs to be an entry, as it appears to be just an idiosyncratic headword used by a single translator. |
| 3. |
A* 2014-11-11 07:47:45 Matt Bloedel <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Good suggestion to split the senses. As for how 広 and 曠
are related, in modern Japanese writing 広 is often
substituted for 曠 since it shares the same onyomi, meaning
and form (simplified form without 日. 昿 is the true
simplified form, but 昿 is not a jouyou kanji so 広 is
substituted instead）. However, since the gikun reading むな
しい for 曠空 is what is found in the literature cited (文語訳
(明治訳)舊約聖書), modern equivalents maybe don't need to be
included. Personally, I like seeing gikun readings in the
literature as poetry for the eyes, so I propose at least
including 曠空い with explanation "むなしい is gikun reading
for 曠空い found in Meiji period literature". |
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Diff: |
@@ -10,0 +11,3 @@
+<k_ele>
+<keb>曠空い</keb>
+</k_ele>
@@ -16,0 +20 @@
+<s_inf>むなしい is gikun reading for 曠空い found in Meiji period literature</s_inf> |
| 2. |
A* 2014-11-11 05:08:23 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
"曠空い" gets one google hit; "昿空い" gets zero. i think these variants are too obscure to be worth recording. also, i'm not sure what makes the 広空い version a modern equivalent, as 広 is not related to those characters as far as i can tell |
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Comments: |
splitting senses |
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Diff: |
@@ -11,9 +10,0 @@
-<k_ele>
-<keb>曠空</keb>
-</k_ele>
-<k_ele>
-<keb>昿空</keb>
-</k_ele>
-<k_ele>
-<keb>広空</keb>
-</k_ele>
@@ -26 +17,2 @@
-<s_inf>むなしい is gikun reading for 曠空い ; 昿空い ; 広空い</s_inf>
+<gloss>empty</gloss>
+<gloss>void</gloss>
@@ -27,0 +20,5 @@
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&adj-i;</pos>
+<gloss>vain</gloss>
+<gloss>fruitless</gloss>
@@ -29,3 +25,0 @@
-<gloss>vain</gloss>
-<gloss>void</gloss>
-<gloss>empty</gloss>
@@ -32,0 +27,4 @@
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&adj-i;</pos>
+<xref type="see" seq="1642360">虚しくなる</xref> |
| 1. |
A* 2014-11-11 01:02:47 Matt Bloedel <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
明治元訳 version of Bible uses gikun readings extensively
throughout. |
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Comments: |
I'll be adding a bunch of these readings as I make my way
through it. You might want to only include 曠空 because
that is the only one of the three gikun usages I've run
across so far. The other two (昿空 ; 広空) are modern
equivalents, but I see no problem including them as well. |
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Diff: |
@@ -10,0 +11,9 @@
+<k_ele>
+<keb>曠空</keb>
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
+<keb>昿空</keb>
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
+<keb>広空</keb>
+</k_ele>
@@ -16,0 +26 @@
+<s_inf>むなしい is gikun reading for 曠空い ; 昿空い ; 広空い</s_inf> |