<entry id="2296533" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>1268310</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>五十音順</keb>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>５０音順</keb>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>ごじゅうおんじゅん</reb>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<xref type="see" seq="1268300">五十音</xref>
<xref type="see" seq="2029800">アイウエオ順</xref>
<gloss>standard gojūon syllabary order (aiueo, etc.)</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2013-03-28 12:17:08" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Francis</upd_name>
<upd_detl>In like mode to my "おほしさま" submission, I am wondering if you would consider making an adjustment to the above so that I can find this entry by searching for "音じゅん" or "音順".

When, as a novice, one sees a number followed by some kanji, one generally knows that a search which starts off with the number will not get a result, e.g., in a search for "三十ページ", one can search for "三十" and then "ページ" and get a meaningful result for the combination. However, one does not get a result when one searches for the complete "三十ページ". The reason is obvious and requires no explanation.

When one is faced with an entry like the main entry above, the logic of the above paragraph falls away, but the novice does not know that in advance and tends to search for "音じゅん" or "音順" with the result that the the main entry is not found. Moreover, a search for the individual parts could not give the meaning of the complete meaning attributed to "五十音順".

I trust that the above is helpful.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>See below.</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2013-03-29 00:42:25" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I can't really do that because it's 五十音 + 順, not 五十 + 音順. As far as I can tell, 音順 is simply not a recognized term in Japanese. (My IME will make it, but then it has all sorts of fragments.) I think you are going to have to rely on looking up 順 and finding that it's a suffix.
I'll leave this open for a bit.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2013-03-29 11:06:40" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Francis</upd_name>
<upd_detl>I agree with your comments. The "順" is normally just the suffix. When I check to find it as a suffix, it takes 2 clicks on the 100+ entries for "五十音順" to come up. This is OK if the searcher knows what to expect and clicks away until the entry is found. The result could of course only turn up as the last entry of the 100+. I suppose that, at the end of the day, one has to decide whether or not to deviate from the standard rules to tackle the exception. Dealing with oddities was always relatively easy when one printed off the book [save of course for the endless burden of having to decide upon the problem of how far to go in dealing with oddities], but with electronic search format I guess that wider problems come into play.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>See below.</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2013-03-30 11:32:29" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>You don't need to look down the list. The very first entry is 順 itself, which says it's a suffix, then the next 10 or so all have it as the final kanji in compounds. That should tell you it's likely to be 五十音 + 順.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2013-03-30 13:11:15" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Francis</upd_name>
<upd_detl>I understand your point, however in a similar example you have dealt with it in the manner of the original discussion.

If you search for "車" the following entry comes up:-

車 【しゃ】 (n-suf) car; vehicle

One can see that it is a suffix as well as a noun and one can search down the list of suffixes.

If you search for "輪車" there is not an entry.


However, that search will take the searcher directly to the following:-

Search Key: 輪車 Current Dictionary: Jpn-Eng General (EDICT) 
Partial match - original key: 輪車 [G][S][A] Propose a new entry for 輪車, or search all dictionaries. 

一輪車 【いちりんしゃ】 (n) unicycle; monocycle; wheelbarrow
三輪車 【さんりんしゃ】 (n) three wheeled vehicle (tricycle, motorcycle, etc.); three wheeler
二輪車 【にりんしゃ】 (n) two wheeled vehicle (bicycle, motorcycle, etc.); (P)
四輪車 【よんりんしゃ】 (n) automobile; car; (P)

This seems to be a similar situation to point about searching for "音順" in order for the novice to find "五十音順".</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>See below.</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2013-03-30 22:09:28" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>It strikes me that these results are 100% analogous to your results for the 輪車 search.

音順 should not be an entry by itself, but when you search for it, 五十音順 nevertheless shows up as a hit.  What is the complaint?</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>A search for 音順 reveals:
Partial match - original key: 音順 [G][S][A] Propose a new entry for 音順, or search all dictionaries.
五十音順 【ごじゅうおんじゅん】 (n) the syllabary order</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2013-03-31 00:38:16" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>輪車 is a bit similar, except that here 輪 (rin) is the counter for wheels.
There is a limit to how far dictionary entries can go in assisting learners to sort out Japanese morphology. Putting entries for fragments which are never actually free-standing lexemes is a step too far.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2014-08-25 01:39:18" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Adding yoji tagAdding yoji tag
-*- via bulkupd.py -*-</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Kanji Haitani list</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -11,0 +12 @@
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;yoji;&lt;/misc&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-11-05 12:42:38" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>not idiomatic yojijukugo.
I don't think "the syllabary order" is a great gloss.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -12,2 +12,2 @@
-&lt;misc&gt;&amp;yoji;&lt;/misc&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;the syllabary order&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;xref type="see" seq="1268300"&gt;五十音&lt;/xref&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;gojūon syllabary order&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-12-01 01:41:46" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>unfortunately, 五十音 is defined as "Japanese syllabary".  so i'm not sure that adding gojūon adds much meaning here.  and it's not in any of my english dictionaries, so it probably would need an expl.

maybe just "Japanese syllabary order" to match 五十音?</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-12-01 01:53:59" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I think my thinking was to try and distinguish this more clearly from 伊呂波順 ▶ iroha order ▶ [expl] traditional ordering of Japanese 
syllabaries (based on a Buddhist poem)</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-12-04 23:41:52" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Helps to spell it out a bit more.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -13 +13,2 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;gojūon syllabary order&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;xref type="see" seq="2029800"&gt;アイウエオ順&lt;/xref&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;standard gojūon syllabary order (aiueo, etc.)&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-03-29 07:32:15" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>razasyedh</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Syed Raza</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>e.g. https://group.ntt/jp/group/gnavi/syllabary_order.html</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -5,0 +6,3 @@
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;５０音順&lt;/keb&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-03-30 02:02:04" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>