<entry id="2296086" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>2708140</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>前門の虎、後門の狼</keb>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>前門の虎後門の狼</keb>
<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>ぜんもんのとら、こうもんのおおかみ</reb>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&exp;</pos>
<misc>&id;</misc>
<gloss>between the devil and the deep sea</gloss>
<gloss>out of the frying pan into the fire</gloss>
<gloss g_type="lit">a tiger at the front gate, a wolf at the back gate</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2012-04-30 21:22:07" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_detl>66k hits vs 2k for 2417290 (後門の虎前門の狼)</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>GG5, etc.</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-05-01 02:12:03" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-04-06 02:40:33" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Opencooper</upd_name>
<upd_diff>@@ -14,0 +15 @@
+&lt;gloss g_type="lit"&gt;a tiger at the front gate, a wolf at the back gate&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-04-06 04:27:48" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-04-06 09:14:33" stat="A">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -5,0 +6,3 @@
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;前門の虎、後門の狼&lt;/keb&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-22 19:41:36" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Stephen Kraus</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Adding these sorts of hidden forms might make these long idiomatic entries easier to find</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Google N-gram Corpus Counts
╭─ーーーーーーーー─┬───────┬───────╮
│ 前門の虎後門の狼 │     0 │  0.0% │
│ 前門の虎　　　　 │ 5,043 │ 47.6% │ 🡠 adding
│ 後門の狼　　　　 │ 4,499 │ 42.5% │ 🡠 adding
│ 前門のとら　　　 │   522 │  4.9% │ 🡠 adding
│ 後門のおおかみ　 │   528 │  5.0% │ 🡠 adding
╰─ーーーーーーーー─┴───────┴───────╯</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,0 +9,16 @@
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;前門の虎&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;後門の狼&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;前門のとら&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;後門のおおかみ&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-23 06:33:42" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Indeed.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-23 13:36:14" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'm not sure we should be using sK for things like this? Feels like we could be opening up a can of worms here. The reason the individual parts get more hits in the ngrams is frequently a problem with the searchability of the ngrams rather than real evidence the individual parts are frequent on their own.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-24 00:45:26" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Whether or not we want to use search-only forms in this way, I don't think it's safe to do so as long as they're included with the other forms. Many sites/apps don't support the new tags yet. Some probably never will.
For the next generation of JMDict, I'd like to see search-only forms handled separately (i.e. in a different part of the XML). Then we can at least consider ideas like this.
And I agree with Marcus regarding the n-grams. The fact that both 前門の虎 and 後門の狼 have nearly identical counts suggests that they're almost always used together. Online search results appear to confirm this.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -9,16 +8,0 @@
-&lt;/k_ele&gt;
-&lt;k_ele&gt;
-&lt;keb&gt;前門の虎&lt;/keb&gt;
-&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
-&lt;/k_ele&gt;
-&lt;k_ele&gt;
-&lt;keb&gt;後門の狼&lt;/keb&gt;
-&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
-&lt;/k_ele&gt;
-&lt;k_ele&gt;
-&lt;keb&gt;前門のとら&lt;/keb&gt;
-&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
-&lt;/k_ele&gt;
-&lt;k_ele&gt;
-&lt;keb&gt;後門のおおかみ&lt;/keb&gt;
-&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-24 04:04:51" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Apologies - I didn't look hard enough at Stephen's proposal. I agree we shouldn't be using such fragments as "rK" forms, at least at this stage.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-03-26 03:16:58" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Setting this up as an example of the approach developed in issue 122.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://github.com/JMdictProject/JMdictIssues/issues/122</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -5 +5 @@
-&lt;keb&gt;前門の虎後門の狼&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;前門の虎、後門の狼&lt;/keb&gt;
@@ -8 +8,2 @@
-&lt;keb&gt;前門の虎、後門の狼&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;前門の虎後門の狼&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
@@ -11 +12 @@
-&lt;reb&gt;ぜんもんのとらこうもんのおおかみ&lt;/reb&gt;
+&lt;reb&gt;ぜんもんのとら、こうもんのおおかみ&lt;/reb&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-03-26 17:53:18" stat="A">
<upd_uid>stephen</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Stephen Kraus</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>