<entry id="2291429" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>2027080</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>べきでは無い</keb>
<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>可きではない</keb>
<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>べきではない</reb>
<re_pri>spec1</re_pri>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&exp;</pos>
<pos>&adj-i;</pos>
<misc>&uk;</misc>
<gloss>should not</gloss>
<gloss>must not</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2004-11-17 00:00:00" stat="A">
<upd_detl>Entry created</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2017-02-10 11:38:26" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>johan</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Johan Råde</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>G n-grams 1197451</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -5,0 +6 @@
+&lt;re_pri&gt;spec1&lt;/re_pri&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2017-02-10 11:56:08" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-03-31 03:16:11" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Rob Harwood</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Just adding a kanji version, to parallel 可き. This is my first edit, so if there are any problems, please let me know. I've been tempted to make some similar edits in the past, but wasn't sure about it, so this is a test for me. 

The motivation to add this kanji reading is that I'm learning kanji via different sites that indirectly use JMDICT data, and having these additional kanji 'readings' would assist in this learning process.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>A quick google search for "可きではない" found 6000+ hits. I briefly scanned a few to make sure I didn't mess up the search, and they were legitimate.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -3,0 +4,3 @@
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;可きではない&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-03-31 05:56:00" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>A comment on this. I don't mind having kanji in the べき entry itself to enable the source to be seen, but the kanji forms for this expression are so rare, as indicated by these Google n-gram counts, that I don't see much value in including them. Others may disagree, but I think they're best omitted.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>可きではない	210
べきではない	1197884
可きでは無い	33</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-04-02 09:00:52" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Rob Harwood</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Argh. It appears I may have 'replied to' / edited the wrong item. Please see my lengthy comment in edit ID 2063205. I've included the same [uk] addition in this edit, just in case.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -12,0 +13 @@
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;uk;&lt;/misc&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-04-03 02:15:54" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Rob, note that the 可き surface form of べ
き is extremely uncommon. Neither Daijirin 
nor Daijisen even include/mention it in 
their main べき entries. I can't 
personally remember ever encountering it 
in the wild either. The question is maybe 
if we're misleading learners by including 
the surface form in our main べき entry - 
you wouldn't have gone on this wild goose 
chase if we hadn't. You shouldn't be using 
the 可き form at all because I don't think 
even most native speakers (readers) would 
recognize it, but this is obviously not 
made clear just from the [uk] tag. I've 
suggested previously on our mailing list 
to implement a [rare] kanji tag, maybe 
something that's worth revisiting.

Also feel absolutely free to make 
suggestions for our この／その／あの entries 
without feeling the need to wait for the 
resolution of this particular issue, but 
do try and trim the length of your 
arguments a little. ;)</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>すべき	10458604
す可き	2284</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-04-03 06:24:04" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Thanks, Marcus. I think that covers it, and I'll close this off now. I don't mind having the kanji form shown on the basic forms (GG5 has 可き in the べき entry), but I do think it is inappropriate to have them in the virtually-always-kana expressions.
Re この/此の/etc. I see Daijirin and GG5 have the 此の, but the other JEs don't.
Marcus: I've added a GitHub issue for [rare]
Rob: if you want to find out more about the n-grams, email me. They are not the counts you get from Google searches, which are almost useless.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -4,3 +3,0 @@
-&lt;k_ele&gt;
-&lt;keb&gt;可きではない&lt;/keb&gt;
-&lt;/k_ele&gt;
@@ -13 +9,0 @@
-&lt;misc&gt;&amp;uk;&lt;/misc&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-04-04 17:04:55" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Rob Harwood</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Thanks for the explanations on your decision. And sorry for the long reply. I was just worried that if I didn't go into the whole thought process, it might seem like I was arguing for a very nit-picky thing, when really for me it's much more of a big-picture kind of question.

With that in mind, I notice that no one has yet responded to the point I made about JMDICT being the data source for many Japanese language learning tools, and even if data may not reflect popularity (as in the example of "(wa) katakana at top"), it may still be worthwhile for the sake of documenting the language itself.

All that said, I respect and accept your decision on this particular entry; but I'm still interested in hearing your thoughts/opinions about this more 'philosophical' point about how JMDICT should (or should not) attempt to support language learners, rather than just reflect current-day usage.

Is such discussion appropriate in these comments or is there another/better way I can ask about this kind of thing?

Jim, I'll look for your email address and try to email you. Thanks for the offer. [D'oh! I see it now at the top of the confirmation page.]</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-04-11 09:27:15" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I've responded to Rob directly.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-02-08 20:41:04" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>stephen</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Stephen Kraus</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I didn't read the long discussion in this entry but I don't think we have a problem with these sorts of kanji forms anymore.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>〈可／べ〉きでは〈無／な〉い

Google N-gram Corpus Counts
╭─ーーーーーー─┬───────────┬───────╮
│ べきでは無い │    18,958 │  1.6% │ - add, sK
│ 可きではない │       210 │  0.0% │ - add, sK
│ 可きでは無い │        33 │  0.0% │
│ べきではない │ 1,197,884 │ 98.4% │
├─ーーーーーー─┼───────────┼───────┤
│ べきでは無く │       248 │  0.3% │
│ 可きでは無く │         0 │  0.0% │
│ 可きではなく │         0 │  0.0% │
│ べきではなく │    74,530 │ 99.7% │
╰─ーーーーーー─┴───────────┴───────╯</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -3,0 +4,8 @@
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;べきでは無い&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;可きではない&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;ke_inf&gt;&amp;sK;&lt;/ke_inf&gt;
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
@@ -9,0 +18,2 @@
+&lt;pos&gt;&amp;adj-i;&lt;/pos&gt;
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;uk;&lt;/misc&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-02-08 22:15:23" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>