<entry id="2290446" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>1523060</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>本当</keb>
<ke_pri>ichi1</ke_pri>
<ke_pri>news1</ke_pri>
<ke_pri>nf02</ke_pri>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>本當</keb>
<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>ほんとう</reb>
<re_pri>ichi1</re_pri>
<re_pri>news1</re_pri>
<re_pri>nf02</re_pri>
</r_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>ほんと</reb>
</r_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>ホントー</reb>
<re_inf>&sk;</re_inf>
</r_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>ホント</reb>
<re_inf>&sk;</re_inf>
</r_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>ホントウ</reb>
<re_inf>&sk;</re_inf>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
<gloss>truth</gloss>
<gloss>reality</gloss>
<gloss>actuality</gloss>
<gloss>fact</gloss>
</sense>
<sense>
<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
<gloss>proper</gloss>
<gloss>right</gloss>
<gloss>correct</gloss>
<gloss>official</gloss>
</sense>
<sense>
<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
<gloss>genuine</gloss>
<gloss>authentic</gloss>
<gloss>real</gloss>
<gloss>natural</gloss>
<gloss>veritable</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2010-09-08 02:42:06" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Scott</upd_name>
<upd_refs>http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9C%AC%E5%BD%93</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -9,0 +9,4 @@
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
+<keb>本當</keb>
+<ke_inf>&oK;</ke_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2010-09-08 02:44:10" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-08-17 18:08:39" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Chao-Chen (Jack) Lin</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -27,1 +27,2 @@
-<gloss>truth</gloss>
+<gloss>honesty</gloss>
+<gloss>honest, truth</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-08-18 00:12:24" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Glossing this effectively is a pain, as is the POS. Daijirin says "名 ・形動: and there are plenty of cases of "本当が.." so it's got to have noun in there somewhere.
Following GG5 and 新和英中辞典's sense split, but they overlap a bit.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Daijr, GG5, etc. etc.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -26,0 +26,1 @@
+<pos>&adv;</pos>
@@ -27,2 +28,1 @@
-<gloss>honesty</gloss>
-<gloss>honest, truth</gloss>
+<gloss>truth</gloss>
@@ -30,0 +30,18 @@
+<gloss>actuality</gloss>
+<gloss>fact</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
+<pos>&adv;</pos>
+<gloss>proper</gloss>
+<gloss>right</gloss>
+<gloss>correct</gloss>
+<gloss>official</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
+<pos>&adv;</pos>
+<gloss>genuine</gloss>
+<gloss>authentic</gloss>
+<gloss>natural</gloss>
+<gloss>veritable</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-08-19 04:09:35" stat="A">
<upd_uid>pupchurch</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Paul Upchurch</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2015-05-14 09:31:32" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Johan Råde</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>adj-no pos?</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>KM ngrams:
本当の 238719
本当な 15097</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2015-05-14 09:49:15" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>It's officially a 形容動詞 (大辞林 has "（ 名 ・形動 ） ［文］ ナリ", but as is often the case, の is used more often than な. I don't think it hurts if we have both.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -24,0 +25 @@
+<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
@@ -33,0 +35 @@
+<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
@@ -41,0 +44 @@
+<pos>&adj-no;</pos></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2016-10-09 20:31:44" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>johan</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Johan Råde</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>6 examples of ホント in Tanaka corpus
ngrams
ホント 15625654
ホントー 39434
ホントウ 35218</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -21,0 +22,5 @@
+<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf>
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
+<reb>ホント</reb>
+<re_nokanji/></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2016-10-09 22:41:51" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Since we have 1611580 with the ホントー/ホントウ versions, I guess it should be consistent</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>ホントーに 31974
ホントに 6252892
ホントウに 19639
ホントー 39434
ホント 15625654
ホントウ 35218</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -27,0 +28,8 @@
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
+<reb>ホントー</reb>
+<re_nokanji/>
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
+<reb>ホントウ</reb>
+<re_nokanji/></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-04-11 07:36:57" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>ほんと is in daijr as "会話語として使われる。", so just "col" at most, not ik.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -22 +21,0 @@
-<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-04-20 05:04:17" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>"ik" means irregular, which I think it is in this case. I think it should stay.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -21,0 +22 @@
+<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-04-21 20:48:45" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-04-21 21:46:41" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Not an adverb.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>daij, gg5, prog</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -37,0 +38 @@
+<pos>&n;</pos>
@@ -40,2 +40,0 @@
-<pos>&adv;</pos>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
@@ -50 +48,0 @@
-<pos>&adv;</pos>
@@ -59 +56,0 @@
-<pos>&adv;</pos>
@@ -61,0 +59 @@
+<gloss>real</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-04-22 05:42:40" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-23 23:48:07" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>penname01</upd_name>
<upd_detl>i think it's best to split ほんと/ホント, many kokugos seem to do so as well
i don't think 本當 can ever be read as ほんと
i've made ホントー/ホントウ search-only</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>sankoku, iwakoku, gg5, daijr, meikyo, shinkoku, etc.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -21,9 +20,0 @@
-<reb>ほんと</reb>
-<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf>
-</r_ele>
-<r_ele>
-<reb>ホント</reb>
-<re_nokanji/>
-<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf>
-</r_ele>
-<r_ele>
@@ -31 +22 @@
-<re_nokanji/>
+<re_inf>&sk;</re_inf>
@@ -35 +26 @@
-<re_nokanji/>
+<re_inf>&sk;</re_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-24 00:07:15" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>It's just a tiny difference in prounciation. It's not really [col] when spoken like this in most cases. I know we're sidestepping the 2/3 rule more and more but I don't think this should be split out.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-24 00:17:51" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>penname01</upd_name>
<upd_detl>i think in this case it's best to follow the kokugos</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>sankoku:
〔話〕「ほんとう（本当）」の変化。
daijr:
「ほんとう（本当）」の転。会話語として使われる。
shinkoku:
〔「ほんとう」のくだけた言い方〕→ほんとう（本当）。</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-24 01:14:23" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>A [ck] (colloquial kana) tag could be useful in cases like this.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-24 01:32:14" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>The kokugos don't have our 2/3 rule so that they have separate entries for 本当 vs ほんと here isn't really relevant.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-24 01:43:39" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>penname01</upd_name>
<upd_detl>i wasn't referring to that
it's useful for the users to know that 本当/ほんと is [uk] and [col], as explained by the various kokugos
also, not splitting requires introducing restrictions as i don't think "本當" can be ever read "ほんと" which seem disliked when possible by the others (not me personally)
overall, i just think that splitting provides more value to the user</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-24 02:16:45" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I understand the point you're making but I don't think the proposed changes would be a net plus to users, having two almost identical entries just needlessly spreads out the same info in my opinion. It's true that ほんと is [col] when written and like Robin said, having a [ck] reading tag might be helpful, if not necessary. You could also make the argument that we could make reading tags based on all or most of our already existing misc tags (e.g. [ksbk]) and that maybe we should be wary of "feature creep".
I don't think we need restrictions for 本當 as pronouncing the word ほんと apparently goes back to at least the Meiji period - Gakkoku for example has an 1887 example (with the kanji 真個, though!). 本當 was used in the Showa period up until the war at very least, see lab.ndl.go.jp
(even if we didn't have evidence the pronunciation went back this far, the inclusion of 本當 is essentially a parenthesis so I don't think restrictions would have been necessary)</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-24 17:14:56" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>penname01</upd_name>
<upd_detl>i do indeed think that multiple reading tags ([ck] (colloquial kana), [fk] (formal kana), etc.) would be helpful and if they're introduced the split would be unnecessary
if they're not, i still think i prefer preserving more info even at the cost of dispersing similar info</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-25 10:59:28" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I agree with Marcus on this, and don't think this entry should be split at all; in fact the only change I'd make is to hide the 本當 form. Leaving it open for a bit, but I think the consensus is to stay with ほんと, etc. in this entry.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>本当 12361117 99.9%
本當 8357 0.1%</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -12 +12 @@
-<ke_inf>&oK;</ke_inf>
+<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-27 10:43:55" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>OK, flipping it back. I'll reopen for a bit.
Ditto for 本当に.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -20,0 +21,4 @@
+<reb>ほんと</reb>
+<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf>
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
@@ -21,0 +26,5 @@
+<re_inf>&sk;</re_inf>
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
+<reb>ホント</reb>
+<re_nokanji/></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-27 10:44:14" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-27 17:01:14" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>stephen</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Stephen Kraus</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>No need for [nokanji] if it's already [sk]</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -30 +29,0 @@
-<re_nokanji/></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-27 17:34:48" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>penname01</upd_name>
<upd_detl>it's not irregular</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -22 +21,0 @@
-<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-01-29 02:21:25" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'm comfortable leaving off the tag. It's pronunciation vs reading.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Daijr: 「ほんとう（本当）」の転。会話語として使われる。</upd_refs>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>