jmdict
2840654
Active
(id:
2273839)
<entry id="2273839" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>2840654</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>男の娘</keb>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>おとこの娘</keb>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>男のコ</keb>
<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>おとこのこ</reb>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<misc>&sl;</misc>
<gloss>young male with a feminine appearance (esp. one who crossdresses and has a feminine gender expression)</gloss>
<gloss>femboy</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2019-07-02 04:45:14" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Nicolas Maia</upd_name>
<upd_detl>Weblio has this as "trap" but there has got to be a better term</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://ejje.weblio.jp/content/%E7%94%B7%E3%81%AE%E5%A8%98</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-07-02 05:42:38" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_diff>@@ -8 +8 @@
-<reb>おとこのむすめ</reb>
+<reb>おとこのこ</reb></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-07-02 09:09:36" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>tjdtg</upd_name>
<upd_refs>https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%B7%E3%81%AE%E5%A8%98
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otokonoko
https://kotaku.com/what-is-japans-fetish-this-week-male-daughters-5804979</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -9,0 +10,3 @@
+<r_ele>
+<reb>おとこのむすめ</reb>
+</r_ele>
@@ -12 +15 @@
-<gloss>?</gloss>
+<gloss>otokonoko, male daughter, a man who cross-dresses as a woman</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-07-02 12:13:08" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>google images
"trap" is correct, I think.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trap</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -15 +15,3 @@
-<gloss>otokonoko, male daughter, a man who cross-dresses as a woman</gloss>
+<misc>&sl;</misc>
+<gloss>trap</gloss>
+<gloss>man crossdressing as a (young) woman</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-07-03 09:31:47" stat="A">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'll just go ahead and approve.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-10-21 20:11:59" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Dominic Zappia</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>The term "trap" has a strong negative connotation in English and is considered by many communities to be a hateful slur against transgender
persons. This specific connotation detracts from the actual definition of the word, prompting its removal. The simpler, more descriptive
definition is sufficient.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender - The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation
"Defamatory: "deceptive," "fooling," "pretending," "posing," "trap," or "masquerading"
Gender identity is an integral part of a person's identity. Do not characterize transgender people as "deceptive," as "fooling" or "trapping"
others, or as "pretending" to be, "posing" or "masquerading" as a man or a woman. Such descriptions are inaccurate, defamatory and insulting. (See
"passing" and "stealth" as problematic terms above.)"</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -16,2 +16 @@
-<gloss>trap</gloss>
-<gloss>man crossdressing as a (young) woman</gloss>
+<gloss>man cross-dressing as a (young) woman</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-10-21 21:45:05" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>なるほど.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-10-21 22:02:57" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I agree that "trap" isn't a good gloss. However, I also think the descriptive gloss isn't entirely correct. The above article notes that a 男の娘 doesn't necessarily wear female clothing.
How's this?</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://dic.pixiv.net/a/男の娘
"あくまで、娘に見える可愛い男性のことなので、女装してる必要は無い。"
---
男の娘 3699
おとこの娘 470</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -5,0 +6,3 @@
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
+<keb>おとこの娘</keb>
@@ -16 +19 @@
-<gloss>man cross-dressing as a (young) woman</gloss>
+<gloss>young man who has a feminine aesthetic</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-10-22 02:31:46" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>"trap" is clearly derogatory slang, so it would depend on the offensiveness level of 男の娘. i'm not familiar with this term, but given that it's an extended wikipedia entry, it's unlikely to be derogatory slang. i didn't read the article but there's nothing in the lede that suggests it's offensive</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-19 09:00:03" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_refs>https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/femboy</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -19,0 +20 @@
+<gloss>femboy</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-19 12:13:42" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Is that really a good fit with 男の娘? I'm reluctant to fiddle much with Robin's 2019 gloss.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-21 01:57:08" stat="A">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Probably fine. Wiktionary has it.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%94%B7%E3%81%AE%E5%A8%98</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -19 +19 @@
-<gloss>young man who has a feminine aesthetic</gloss>
+<gloss>young male who has a feminine aesthetic</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-21 14:45:43" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Looking at Google Images, I don't think "young male who has a feminine aesthetic" is a very good gloss at all, I think it's too vague as to miss the point. The pics are all of crossdressers who would only pass for girls. (maybe half are manga/anime, half are photos). It seems the word "trap" came about to describe the exact same anime/manga phenomenon as 男の娘 did. There's apparent there's concerns it's derogatory because of the implication of "falling into a trap" or "luring into a trap" and this is a connotation the original Japanese doesn't have, true, but I still think it's weird to leave it out.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://numan.tokyo/words/NrlHS
女の子にしか見えない男の子のこと。
https://www.oricon.co.jp/special/59491/
https://www.japanesewithanime.com/2018/02/otokonoko.html
In Japanese, otokonoko 男の子 means "boy," literally "male child." This post, however, is about otokonoko 男の娘, "male girl," an Japanese anime slang for boys that look like girls, that translates to English as the anime slang "trap," or the gay slang "femboy."
https://www.j-cast.com/2020/08/16392220.html?p=all
「男の娘」を指す「trap」は差別用語？ 海外掲示板の処置に日本でも物議
女性のような外見や内面の男性を指す用語として、海外のアニメ掲示板では「trap」という語が用いられることがあった。
urban dictionary's definition of trap:
A crossdresser, usually a fictional character in an anime, who dresses up in the opposite gender's clothing to trick people into thinking that they're the opposite gender.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -19 +19 @@
-<gloss>young male who has a feminine aesthetic</gloss>
+<gloss>young crossdressing male (esp. in anime or manga)</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-29 11:12:39" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Crossdressing doesn't appear to be a requirement (but presumably applies in the vast majority of cases).
The Japanese Wikipedia article on 男の娘 lists 10 definitions from various "専門家" and the only element that is common to all of them is "feminine appearance"/"looks like a girl".
The English Wikipedia article uses "feminine gender expression", which I think fits well.
Although it originated as a manga term, I don't think "esp. in anime or manga" is true any more.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://dic.pixiv.net/a/%E7%94%B7%E3%81%AE%E5%A8%98
"現在、女装していない男の娘もでてきており、女装必須というわけではなくなっている。"
https://numan.tokyo/words/NrlHS
"まれに男の恰好をしていてもかわいらしすぎて女の子にしか見えない男の子のことも指す。"
https://www.tukinasikotonoha.com/otokonoko-zyosoudansi
"確かに「男の娘（おとこのこ）」と聞くと、女装をしなくても女の子に見える中性的な顔立ち、という印象を持ちます。"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otokonoko</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -19 +19 @@
-<gloss>young crossdressing male (esp. in anime or manga)</gloss>
+<gloss>young male with a feminine appearance (esp. one who crossdresses and has a feminine gender expression)</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-29 22:56:13" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'm comfortable with that. I hope it wraps it up.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-29 23:14:24" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_detl>I think this is written w katakana too?
https://www.cmoa.jp/title/115021/</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-30 01:25:12" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>We currently have 男のコ as a form in our 男の子 entry (1420010). Looking at the WWW pages using it, it probably would be more appropriate here. Any view on this?</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>男のコ 55090 83.6%
男のこ 6080 9.2%
男の娘 3699 5.6%
おとこの娘 470 0.7%
男の子 6097488</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-30 16:55:27" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>The 男の娘 Wikipedia article does include 男のコ in the list of variant forms but looking on Twitter, I'd say it's mostly used with the regular "boy" meaning. I'd make it a search-only form.
I don't think we need the むすめ reading. Wikipedia only mentions it in a note (「おとこのむすめ」と読む場合もあるとされる) and the source is an English Kotaku article.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -12,3 +11,0 @@
-</r_ele>
-<r_ele>
-<reb>おとこのむすめ</reb></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-31 10:56:13" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>HiddenForm 男のコ
OK</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-16 04:39:20" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,0 +9,4 @@
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
+<keb>男のコ</keb>
+<ke_inf>&sK;</ke_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-07-28 02:49:55" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_diff>@@ -21,0 +22 @@
+<gloss>trap</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-07-28 05:57:32" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>The term "trap" was briefly included as a gloss about 4 years ago, and was removed. As a contributor wrote: "The term "trap" has a strong negative connotation in English and is considered by many communities to be a hateful slur against transgender persons."
If you think it should be added, you need to make a case which directly addresses the problems discussed earlier.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -22 +21,0 @@
-<gloss>trap</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-08-03 06:28:53" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>No response. Closing.</upd_detl>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>