<entry id="2221063" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>2213240</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>悼み悲しむ</keb>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>いたみ悲しむ</keb>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>いたみかなしむ</reb>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&v5m;</pos>
<pos>&vt;</pos>
<misc>&rare;</misc>
<gloss>to mourn</gloss>
<gloss>to grieve</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2007-10-06 00:00:00" stat="A">
<upd_detl>Entry created</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-08 12:06:32" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Brian Krznarich</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Searching around, doesn't seem especially rare. This entry was created as [rare] in 2007.
Seems to be more common in kanji form (悼み悲しむ) than kana (いたみ悲しむ) (which agrees with the current entry).
Found on twitter, google, google news, social media, etc.
悼み悲しんで
死を悼み悲しんで
死を悲しむ
etc.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>悼み悲しんで
https://twitter.com/search?q=%E6%82%BC%E3%81%BF%E6%82%B2%E3%81%97%E3%82%93%E3%81%A7&src=typed_query&f=live
死を悼み悲しんで
https://twitter.com/search?q=%E6%AD%BB%E3%82%92%E6%82%BC%E3%81%BF%E6%82%B2%E3%81%97%E3%82%93%E3%81%A7&src=typed_query&f=live
死を悼み悲しむ
https://twitter.com/search?q=%E6%AD%BB%E3%82%92%E6%82%BC%E3%81%BF%E6%82%B2%E3%81%97%E3%82%80&src=typed_query&f=live
死を悲しむ
https://news.google.com/search?q=%22%E6%82%BC%E3%81%BF%E6%82%B2%E3%81%97%E3%82%80%22&hl=ja&gl=JP&ceid=JP%3Aja</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -15 +14,0 @@
-<misc>&rare;</misc></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-09 01:27:37" stat="A">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Certainly rare in the ngrams, and not all that common on twitter either. I wouls probably not call it [obscure] as the tag was previously called, but [rare] as it's called now seems fine to me.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>悼み悲しむ 114 47.5%
いたみ悲しむ 126 52.5%
いたみかなしむ 0 0.0%
悼み悲しんで 63 75.9%
いたみ悲しんで 20 24.1%
いたみかなしんで 0 0.0%</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-09 10:28:27" stat="A">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -14,0 +15 @@
+<pos>&vt;</pos></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-09 12:56:58" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Brian Krznarich</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Apparently I sent a long reply post on [rare] into the ether. I believe I could describe this feeling properly with 投稿の喪失を悼み悲んでいます... Retyping/condensing, because I can't rebuild everything...
If this entry really is [rare], I would appreciate some advice/guidance on how that term is applied. I find that the [rare] tag is infrequently used in this dictionary, and that there are an abundance of terms in this dictionary that are far more infrequently used than this one that are not marked [rare]. I usually interpret [rare] as some mix of "if you try to use this term in front of a native Japanese person, it may not be readily understood; you shouldn't rely on this English gloss for a translation into Japanese; there is probably different terminology you should use to communicate the English gloss, except possibly in a very niche/specialized environment; you are unlikely to encounter this term in the wild; this might appear in old Japanese texts, but is probably not in common use in modern writing".
I find that this generally applies to terms flagged as [rare]. But that doesn't seem to apply to 悼み悲しむ. At best, 悼み悲しむ is not the most common way to translate "to mourn", but at the same time it appears that there is a communally understood nuance to 悼み悲しむ. I was quite surprised to find the number of instances (see references) where 悼み悲しむ was used to define *another* term, which seems indicative that this is quite well understood among Japanese speakers.
Since this was entered as [rare] in 2007, I figured maybe it was made by a determination of raw statistics. But mourning the loss of a leader, or some mourning some great loss with solemn sadness (which is the gist I am generally getting here) is not an exceedingly common event either. And I am certainly not claiming this is a "common" way to even describe Abe's assassination. Given the enormity of the event, the feeling must have been communicated 1000s of times in print, and I've only dug up a handful of examples using 悼み悲しむ. Even so, it's seems well understood, still relevant in modern writing, unlikely to be misunderstood if used by a second-language learner (and in the right circumstances perhaps entirely appropriate).
Given all that, I feel like [rare] does a disservice to this entry, even if it's not an expression in daily conversation. I certainly think it's a perfectly safe term to study with the '悼' kanji (and for whatever reason it is the 4th entry under 悼 on jisho.org, including an example sentence from some old corpus, which is also uncommon to have for [rare] terms).</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Feb 2022, an article on the new ghostbusters film, which was made after and in memory of the deceased filmmaker Ivan Reitman
https://www.banger.jp/news/73396/
映画界からライトマンの死を悼み悲しむ声が届いている。
毎日新聞 (partially paywalled, text copied from google result) 死を悼み悲しむ is used to defined another term.
戸次住職は「死を悼み悲しむという意味の『弔う』に対して、『訪う』は亡き人を訪ねその死の意味を問い、思いを受け継ぐために耳を澄ますという意味が
https://mainichi.jp/articles/20160712/k00/00e/040/205000c
Another case of 死を悼み悲しむ to define another term:
https://news.mynavi.jp/article/20220620-2373260/
「お悔み申し上げます」とは、「悔み(くやみ)」を丁寧にした表現です。悔みとは「くやむこと、後悔」という意味のほかに、「死を悼み悲しむ」という意味があります。
Another case of 死を悼み悲しむ to define another term(twitter):
https://twitter.com/yjmaniacbot/status/1590513404686389248
【悽愴流涕】 読み：せいそうりゅうてい
意味：悼み悲しんで涙を流す
Another case of 死を悼み悲しむ to define another term:
https://life.saisoncard.co.jp/family/post/c816/
「哀悼の意を表します」は、故人の死を悼み悲しんでいるさまを表している言葉です。
Another case of 死を悼み悲しむ to define another term:
https://business-career-work.com/itamunoimiyaruigi/
悼むと「弔意を表す」の違い
「弔意を表す（ちょういをあらわす）」とは、「人の死を悼み悲しんでいることを表現する」という意味です。 「弔意」という言葉は「人の死を悲しむこと」という意味なので「悼む」と同義語になります。
...
Twitter entries after the assassination of Abe.
July 2022 https://twitter.com/narinari231/status/1552854056661463040
オーストラリアありがとう😭🇦🇺日本だけなんでこんなク○対応で後手後手なの😭安倍さんの価値も功績も人柄も正しく理解しているのは海外ばかりじゃない😭💢
日本人の多くは死を悼み悲しんで惜しんでるのにまるでそんな人達はごく僅かみたいな報道の仕方いい加減にやめて欲しい。心の底から腹立たしい。
July(Abe)
高校生が元首相の死を悼み悲しんでこの国を憂いて将来を考えてくれているのに何考えて噛み付いて来てやがんだ？パンダじゃなくカミツキガメに改名しろ
September 2022(Abe) https://twitter.com/yYtTNxZXF1UvWZR/status/1574746207158956037
献花に行きたかった😭
国葬の中継をテレビで泣きながら見ていました。😭😭😭
多くの人が安倍元総理を評価し悼み悲しんで献花に来ておられるのが分かって嬉しかったです。
August 2022 (Abe)
https://mobile.twitter.com/basilspicy79/status/1562839718412406784
国民は安倍総理の死を悼み悲しんでいる。産経新聞は「追悼クラウドファンディング」で予定の８倍の金額を集めた。
August 2022 (Abe)
https://twitter.com/svkjacxl/status/1561271531027644417
台湾の方が日本より安倍さんの死を悼み悲しんでませんかね。台湾のご年配の方からたまに言われます。「最近の日本人からは、私達が教えられた日本人の心みたいな精神性を感じなくなりつつある」と。
Random youtube comment on the occasion of Abe's death (you have to scroll through to find it)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkvKpUBmqvOosebsezHy5mg/community?lc=UgzysFUW7AUDjBENd7Z4AaABAg&lb=Ugkx3LKBVDamvF3g8SyZ9SrhaUZlqk1PUpQL
黒幕とか、裏のなんちゃらとかいらないです。
ただただ腹立たしくて仕方ない。ただただ悲しくて仕方ない。
この衝撃と、悲しみは自分でも『は？え？なんで？』です。まるで身近な人のことのように悼み悲しんでいる自分に驚いています。だからきっと本当のリーダーだったんだなーと今更ながら思いに耽っています。
A few more random twitter instances from 2022
ほんとうに‥。 大半の方は死を悼み悲しんでおられます。自分も喪失感が大きいです
ちらほらと見受けられた、利用するようなものや批判するものに心が痛かったです。こんな時まで支持が何なんだよって。
楊貴妃を悼み悲しんでこの曲を作ったとされる。「霖」は長雨。
一度タヒんで、そのタヒを悼み悲しんで無理やりでも飲み込んで前を向いたのに生き返った時の感情も行き場がないけれど...
亡き妻を偲ぶ曲。玄宗皇帝が楊貴妃の死を悼み悲しんで作った楽曲の名前。
めっっっちゃ言われたい…まさしく”先輩”の言葉じゃん… すぐ全部は汲み取れないかもしれないけど「悼み悲しんで立ち止まること」の究極が死なら、自分に銃口向けたときにはじめてあの日の有先輩の言葉がストンと入ってくる感覚あるな……
A selection of completely novel uses just from the first pages of google:
そこで、死者を悼み悲しんでいる人が自由にまた十分に自己の悲しみと向き合うことができるよう...
このペンギンのお母さんは、赤ちゃんの喪失を悼み悲しんでいます (twitter)
彼らは、その死を悼み悲しんで泣き夕方まで断食をしました。 (Dec. 2020)
マフロンの嫁であるルツも，夫の死を悼み悲しんでいました。
「たとえどんなことを経験している最中でも、出産したばかりでも、死を悼み悲しんでいても、アレサはすぐさま仕事に戻る。</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-09 14:52:48" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Brian Krznarich</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I think I should give the editorial policy another looking over, I didn't realize how many details I could find answers to there.
I was unaware that [rare] is a rename of [obsc]. This post is just to note that the this change is not reflected in the wiki:
http://www.edrdg.org/wiki/index.php/Editorial_policy#Old_and_Rarely_Used_Terms
"obs" (obsolete). This is typically used for terms that were in use in the Meiji and early Showa periods, but are no longer in general use, e.g. they have been supplanted by another term.
"obsc" (obscure). This is used to indicate that a term, although in current use, is rarely encountered. A term that is included in one or more 国語辞典 but is not in Japanese-English dictionaries and has low occurrence levels in n-gram corpora would be a candidate for this tag. It is also particularly appropriate to add it to a term if there are other more common terms with the same meaning.
In the case of コンベヤー and 搬送帯, this seems like the exact sort of case that [rare] is useful. In this case, I don't think you could say that 悼み悲しむ is merely a less-common synonym for 悼む. The gloss doesn't currently capture it, but it surely has a distinct nuance(stronger intensity, I would think).</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-10 04:51:06" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I think the [rare] tag is quite appropriate. This 複合動詞 doesn't even get into published dictionaries. I have checked to n-grams for the verbs the EJs suggest for "to mourn" and they are far more common.
Thanks for the heads-up on the editorial page. I'll amen it to reflect the current tag usage.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>悼み悲しむ 114
いたみ悲しむ 126
悼む 74826
嘆く 297957
悲しむ 262433
喪に服する 3155</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -15,0 +16 @@
+<misc>&rare;</misc></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-10 06:25:00" stat="A">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Just want to add, Brian, that suggestions/questions relating to policy (e.g. "what is [rare] supposed to convey?") are better suited for the github: https://github.com/JMdictProject</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-10 14:53:17" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Brian Krznarich</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Thank you Jim and Marcus, I appreciate the feedback. I will keep that github link in mind for the future, and re-evaluate my understanding of [rare] in this database.
As a final note on this (not advocating for a change) I asked a handful of Japanese students the difference between 死を悼む, 死を悲しむ, and 死を悼み悲しむ, and the immediate response (besides some laughter because they are all very similar and difficult to tease apart) is that 悼み悲しむ is "more serious". It's just duplication, basically a grammatical combination of mourning + mourning = really mourning. Japanese speakers don't need a dictionary entry for this. You can also build it in reverse 悲しみ悼む, a structure that is marginally less common:
Google N-gram Corpus Counts
悲しみ悼む 75
悲しみ悼んで 26
As a learner I wouldn't vote to remove this entry, as I've clearly found it instructive. But I also kind of wonder if it would be added today if it weren't already here. Usually when I encounter [rare] it is to downplay an eccentric entry from some 国語辞典. In this case, jmdict seems to have bucked the j-j dictionaries by including 悼み悲しむ, only to end up tagging it [rare]. If I suggested adding 悲しみ悼む (I have no intentions of doing this, don't worry), for example, I assume it would be rejected outright for rarity, obviousness, and absence in existing 辞典.
Apologies for the final cluttering-up of this entry's history. It included some stats on the reversed 悲し悼む and some reports of Japanese feedback that might have some small relevance. But this does not require a response, and I am not advocating any further edits to this entry. Thanks again.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-11 01:21:53" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Brian makes a good point.
There are so many 複合動詞 out there, mostly with meanings that are obvious from their parts, that we tend not to add them unless they're common (or listed in a major dictionary).
Given that 悼み悲しむ is comparatively uncommon and easy to translate, it's not a particularly useful entry. I wouldn't object to dropping it. Brian rightly assumes that we would reject 悲しみ悼む.
I do think [rare] looks a little odd here. To me, the tag implies that if a native speaker were to come across the word in writing, they might raise an eyebrow or suggest replacing it with another. That probably wouldn't happen with 悼み悲しむ.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-02-01 16:23:32" stat="D" unap="true">
<upd_name>Brian Krznarich</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>When looking at dictionary definitions for another entry on grief (憂戚), I randomly encountered another *悲しむ example, 憂い悲しむ. Looking at the n-grams, it is even more common than this entry, is *also* frequently used to define other terms (its meaning is readily understood), and also does not appear in 国語辞典 as a standalone entry。 It's also common enough (but not super common) in a twitter search.
And, 憂い悲しむ is another term I can't imagine being added to this dictionary.
For reference, my little 国語辞典 has zero entries ending in 悲しむ, which is to say that I don't think absence from 国語辞典 is an inherent statement on rarity for such terms.
Since this entry appears to be still open, and given some indication that I may not be the only one who feels [rare] is a bit incongruous, I'd lean towards deleting this entry over leaving it here as [rare].
There seems to be some consensus that this entry might not be re-created today based on current criteria for entry. That said, I feel like there might be some preference to keep terms once they are already in here - I guess I am still feeling that out. I won't be bothered one way or the other about how this turns out, but I will find it instructive to see what the final decision is here.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Google N-gram Corpus Counts
悼み悲しむ 114
憂い悲しむ 174
twitter for 憂い悲しむ
https://twitter.com/search?q=%E6%86%82%E3%81%84%E6%82%B2%E3%81%97%E3%82%80&src=typed_query
Examples of 憂い悲しむ used to define other terms:
憂愁
意味 憂い悲しむこと。心配して悲しむこと。
https://kokugo.jitenon.jp/word/p51782
憂戚（ゆうせき）
うれい悲しむこと。
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/憂戚/
ゆう‐しゅう〔イウシウ〕【憂愁】 の解説
うれえ悲しむこと。気分が晴れず沈むこと。「―に閉ざされる」
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/憂愁/#jn-224231
For Comparison on rarity(I happen to have just started studying 縋る): these *縋る entries are all in jmdict and in my J-J dictionary, likely because their meaning not so plainly obvious or directly derivable, but they appear no less rare than 悼み悲しむ and are not marked [rare] in jmdict:
泣き縋る 184
取り縋る 291
寄り縋る 77</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-02-06 10:58:36" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'm quite comfortable with having good coverage of 複合動詞. They may be obvious to native speakers but not necessarily to learners, and they are good for reverse lookups.
I see [rare] as more a signal to non-native speakers to use it with caution.
We have a couple of example sentences using this one.</upd_detl>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>