jmdict
2739170
Active
(id:
2218621)
<entry id="2218621" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>2739170</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>個目</keb>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>こめ</reb>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&ctr;</pos>
<s_inf>forms an ordinal number</s_inf>
<gloss>the nth (thing)</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2012-08-29 01:35:27" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>John Knox</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I added a "see also" for "番目", as the usage appears similar. If they are not synonymous, the distinction might be a good thing to include.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Not directly listed in a dictionary that I can find, but self evident from parallel translations at http://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=%E5%80%8B%E7%9B%AE , and in seemingly fairly frequent and consistant usage in web search results : http://search.goo.ne.jp/web.jsp?MT=%B8%C4%CC%DC&from=dict_no_hit&JP=0&CK=1</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-08-29 02:14:25" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>It's quite compositional, but then so really is 番目, which is in Koj/Daijr/etc. I'm inclined to keep it.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Eijiro has "＿個目の金メダルを取る : collect one's __th gold medal".</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -12,0 +12,1 @@
+<pos>&n-suf;</pos>
@@ -13,1 +14,1 @@
-<gloss>(n) cardinal number suffix</gloss>
+<gloss>cardinal number suffix (for objects, etc.)</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-08-29 07:00:27" stat="A">
<upd_uid>pupchurch</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Paul Upchurch</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-09-12 23:19:58" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Francis</upd_name>
<upd_detl>I have not changed the above.
With the following entries, it is clear that "個" is a counter:-
つ; ち(ok); ぢ(ok); じ(箇)(ok) 《箇; 個》 (ctr) (uk) counter for the hito-futa-mi counting system (forming hitotsu, futatsu, mitsu, and misoji, yasoji, etc.)
個(P); 箇 【こ(P); コ】 (ctr) (1) counter for articles; (2) (usu. 個) counter for military units; (3) individual; (P)
箇; 個; 个 【か; カ】 (ctr) counter for the ichi-ni-san counting system (usu. directly preceding the item being counted); a noun read using its on-yomi
With the following entry, it is clear that "目 [7]" is used to make numbers ordinal, e.g., 1st, 2nd, etc:-
目(P); 眼(P) 【め】 (n) (1) eye; eyeball; (2) (See 目が見える) eyesight; sight; vision; (3) look; stare; glance; (4) an experience; (5) viewpoint; (6) (See 編み目) stitch; texture; weave; (suf) (7) ordinal number suffix; (8) (See 大きめ) somewhat; -ish; (P)
So when I go to the main entry above, I am wondering how the addition of "目" to "個" creates a cardinal number.
I cannot seem to find much help with my searches, but then I turn to the link in the main submission to see "番目". This link confirms the cardinal nature, i.e.,
番目 【ばんめ】 (n) cardinal number suffix; (P)
However, that confirmation is destroyed when I go to the following entry:-
一番目 【いちばんめ】 (n) the first
As will be seen this entry is ordinal, dealing with order; as shown above for "目" which is the ordinal suffix.
This question of ranking is again confirmed with:-
何番目 【なんばんめ】 (n) what number; rank?
and also:-
二番目; ２番目 【にばんめ】 (n) second (in a series)
I did not alter the main entry above nor any of the others because I am not a math's orintated person, but upon being driven by text which I was reading, which text somewhat indicated the "ordinal" concept, my searches for clarification lead me to the main entry above with a "cardinal" result.
My apologies if I have misunderstood the point of "ordinal" and "cardinal"</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-11-20 10:42:40" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I was confused. It's really ordinal.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Eijiro</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -11,2 +11,2 @@
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<pos>&n-suf;</pos>
+<pos>&ctr;</pos>
+<xref type="see" seq="1482410">番目・1</xref>
@@ -14,2 +14,1 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1482410">番目・1</xref>
-<gloss>cardinal number suffix (for objects, etc.)</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates position in a sequence</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-11-21 03:30:47" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-03-31 01:58:13" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -13 +13,2 @@
-<gloss>indicates position in a sequence</gloss>
+<s_inf>indicates position in a sequence</s_inf>
+<gloss>the n-th</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-03-31 02:20:00" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-07-28 23:54:15" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I don't think this is needed. We don't have 人目, 枚目, 匹目, etc.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-02 10:25:31" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'd keep this (and 番目). They're a bit more abstract than 人目, 枚目, 匹目, etc.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-09 15:03:51" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>個目 and 番目 aren't interchangeable.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -12,3 +12,2 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1482410">番目・1</xref>
-<s_inf>indicates position in a sequence</s_inf>
-<gloss>the n-th</gloss>
+<s_inf>forms an ordinal number</s_inf>
+<gloss>the nth (thing)</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-09 19:42:36" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>