<entry id="2215231" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>2752940</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>下家</keb>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>しもチャ</reb>
</r_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>シモチャ</reb>
<re_nokanji/>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<xref type="see" seq="2752950">上家・かみチャ</xref>
<xref type="see" seq="2752960">対面・トイメン・1</xref>
<field>&mahj;</field>
<lsource xml:lang="chi" ls_type="part">xiàjiā</lsource>
<gloss>right-hand opponent</gloss>
<gloss>player to one's right</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2012-10-17 20:26:18" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>pupchurch</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Paul Upchurch</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>http://dora12.net/modules/dic/shimocya.html
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%BA%BB%E9%9B%80%E3%81%AE%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-18 23:58:33" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>nikk</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,1 +8,4 @@
-<reb>シモチャ</reb>
+<reb>しもチャ</reb>
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
+<reb>シャーチャ</reb>
@@ -13,1 +16,2 @@
-<gloss>the player to one's right (mahjong)</gloss>
+<gloss>right-hand opponent (mahjong)</gloss>
+<gloss>player to one's right</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-19 01:43:09" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>pupchurch</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Paul Upchurch</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>"しもチャ" "麻雀" claimed 4.5k hits at first, but the results stopped at page 4 with 33 hits.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Hits:
"しもチャ" "麻雀" 33
"シモチャ" "麻雀" 6k</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,1 +8,1 @@
-<reb>しもチャ</reb>
+<reb>シモチャ</reb></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-19 02:09:19" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>pupchurch</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Paul Upchurch</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Not sure whether シャーチャ should be [ok] or [ik], but leaving it without any tag would probably make people think it's a much more common pronunciation than it is. Out of the first 7 pages for ”シャーチャ” ”下家”, I only saw one that wasn't giving シャーチャ as a reading for 西家, and that was talking about Chinese. Even if one dictionary has the reading, it's effectively not used.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Hits:
”下家 シモチャ” 1.7k
”下家 シャーチャ” 1</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -12,0 +12,1 @@
+<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-19 02:33:21" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>but "しも" is obviously a kun'yomi reading, so it shouldn't
be written as katakana unless it's a nokanji, or, if we're
making a special exception for mahjong terms. I guess this
should ideally be discussed on the mailing list.
__
[ik] for シャーチャ seems a bit weird, as it's not actually
incorrect. I think [ok] would be better, but I'm not sure it
really needs a tag at all.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-20 02:35:33" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Putting the mixed version in too. I don't think シャーチャ needs a tag.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -11,0 +11,3 @@
+<reb>しもチャ</reb>
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
@@ -12,1 +15,0 @@
-<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-20 03:43:46" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>How about this?</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,1 +8,1 @@
-<reb>シモチャ</reb>
+<reb>しもチャ</reb>
@@ -11,1 +11,2 @@
-<reb>しもチャ</reb>
+<reb>シモチャ</reb>
+<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-20 05:43:46" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>pupchurch</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Paul Upchurch</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Following Jim's ordering from 上家 for シモチャ;しもチャ.
The problem with シャーチャ is that it's telling people that that's an actual, used pronunciation in Japanese for this term. But according to all other sources and what I've seen of actual use, シャーチャ in a mahjong context is 西家 every time. Including シャーチャ in this entry as a regular reading is at the very least misleading.
How about this: since シモチャ/しもチャ is technically [lsrc=chi/p:], we split off シャーチャ into a separate entry with [lsrc=chi:][obsc] and a cross-reference to here, since its sources are nikk (not the best source for mahjong) and approximately 1 Google hit.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,1 +8,1 @@
-<reb>しもチャ</reb>
+<reb>シモチャ</reb>
@@ -11,5 +11,1 @@
-<reb>シモチャ</reb>
-<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf>
-</r_ele>
-<r_ele>
-<reb>シャーチャ</reb>
+<reb>しもチャ</reb>
@@ -19,1 +15,1 @@
-<lsource xml:lang="chi"/>
+<lsource xml:lang="chi" ls_type="part"/></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-20 06:01:48" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>well... I think シモチャ should be either marked with [ik] or
[nokanji]. If the case is being made that it is used on its
own (I get 103 results for -"下家" "シモチャ" on bing), then it
should be nokanji, like for animal species, etc., but if
not, it should be [ik], like the らーめん reading in the ramen
entry. Even if the all-katakana denotation doesn't go
against mahjong conventions, it does go against general
Japanese kana usage conventions.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-20 06:10:07" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>pupchurch</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Paul Upchurch</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>[ik] on シモチャ seems reasonable, but it's clearly the more common way, so it should be first. I know we have some entries where the first entry in the kanji is [iK].</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -9,0 +9,1 @@
+<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-10-29 03:11:45" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>2/3 rule says that シャーチャ should be in here. I think the "chi/p" is clear enough, given the katakana usage. I tried to have both "[lsrc=chi/p:]" and "[lsrc=chi:]", but it violates the database rules.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -14,0 +14,3 @@
+<r_ele>
+<reb>シャーチャ</reb>
+</r_ele></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2014-12-21 04:31:17" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -18,0 +19 @@
+<field>&mahj;</field>
@@ -20 +21 @@
-<gloss>right-hand opponent (mahjong)</gloss>
+<gloss>right-hand opponent</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-04-12 06:06:49" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>dine</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>シャーチャ is not partial</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://www.moedict.tw/%E4%B8%8B%E5%AE%B6</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -20 +20 @@
-<lsource xml:lang="chi" ls_type="part"/>
+<lsource xml:lang="chi" ls_type="part">xiàjiā</lsource></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-04-12 19:00:20" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2021-11-30 06:29:35" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Don't have ik on 上家.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -9 +8,0 @@
-<re_inf>&ik;</re_inf>
@@ -18,0 +18 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="2752950">上家・シャンチャ</xref></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2021-11-30 09:36:03" stat="A">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,3 +7,0 @@
-<reb>シモチャ</reb>
-</r_ele>
-<r_ele>
@@ -13,0 +11,4 @@
+<reb>シモチャ</reb>
+<re_nokanji/>
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
@@ -14,0 +16 @@
+<re_nokanji/></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-12-08 02:34:14" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Stephen Kraus</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I don't think a [nokanji] tag on シャーチャ is right since it's just the Chinese reading of 下家 rather than an independent surface form. The corresponding Chinese reading on 上家 (シャンチャ) also doesn't have a [nokanji] tag.
I agree with Paul that these entries would be better without the Chinese readings altogether.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -11,2 +11 @@
-<reb>シモチャ</reb>
-<re_nokanji/>
+<reb>シャーチャ</reb>
@@ -15 +14 @@
-<reb>シャーチャ</reb>
+<reb>シモチャ</reb>
@@ -20,2 +19,3 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2752950">上家・シャンチャ</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2752950">上家・シャンチャ</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2752950">上家</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2752950">上家</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2752960">対面・1</xref></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-12-08 06:20:47" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I wouldn't object if シャーチャ was dropped.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-12-08 18:20:56" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Stephen Kraus</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Probably worthwhile to include the readings in the reference notes since they are ambiguous.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Mainstream mahjong term glossaries don't mention the original Chinese reading.
* https://majandofu.com/mahjong-glossary-shimocha
* https://mahjongcollege.com/term/5645/
* https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%BA%BB%E9%9B%80%E3%81%AE%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB#%E3%83%97%E3%83%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A4%E3%83%BC
The Encyclopedia Nipponica entry for 麻雀 mentions シャーチャ, but I think having "xiàjiā" in the lsrc field is sufficient.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -11,3 +10,0 @@
-<reb>シャーチャ</reb>
-</r_ele>
-<r_ele>
@@ -19,2 +16,2 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2752950">上家</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2752960">対面・1</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2752950">上家・かみチャ</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2752960">対面・トイメン・1</xref></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-12-08 22:44:26" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>シャーチャ 0</upd_refs>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>