<entry id="2202326" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>1650310</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>唐物</keb>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>からもの</reb>
</r_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>とうぶつ</reb>
</r_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>とうもつ</reb>
<re_inf>&ok;</re_inf>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<misc>&hist;</misc>
<gloss>Chinese goods</gloss>
<gloss>imported goods</gloss>
</sense>
<sense>
<stagr>からもの</stagr>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<misc>&arch;</misc>
<gloss>secondhand goods</gloss>
<gloss>old furniture</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2012-05-16 07:54:09" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus</upd_name>
<upd_refs>日本国語大辞典, daijs</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -18,1 +18,2 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;fancy ancient Chinese imported goods&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;arch;&lt;/misc&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;Chinese goods&lt;/gloss&gt;
@@ -21,0 +22,5 @@
+&lt;sense&gt;
+&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;arch;&lt;/misc&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;old furniture, secondhand goods&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;/sense&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-05-17 07:53:12" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>sense 1 is not archaic.  sense 2 is からもの only</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>koj, daij, gg5, meikyo</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,3 +8,0 @@
-&lt;reb&gt;からもの&lt;/reb&gt;
-&lt;/r_ele&gt;
-&lt;r_ele&gt;
@@ -14,0 +11,4 @@
+&lt;reb&gt;からもの&lt;/reb&gt;
+&lt;re_inf&gt;&amp;ok;&lt;/re_inf&gt;
+&lt;/r_ele&gt;
+&lt;r_ele&gt;
@@ -15,0 +16,1 @@
+&lt;re_inf&gt;&amp;ok;&lt;/re_inf&gt;
@@ -18,1 +20,0 @@
-&lt;misc&gt;&amp;arch;&lt;/misc&gt;
@@ -23,0 +24,1 @@
+&lt;stagr&gt;からもの&lt;/stagr&gt;
@@ -25,1 +27,2 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;old furniture, secondhand goods&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;secondhand goods&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;old furniture&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-05-17 08:00:54" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus</upd_name>
<upd_detl>shouldn't karamono come first?

not that google results are definitive, but:
唐物 ”とうふつ"　4,860 results
唐物 ”からもの"　　 85,500 results</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-05-17 23:00:35" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I get からもの in front too, (4k vs 1k) - be sure to put "" around the kanji too. The Wiki page only uses that reading, as does the kotobank article.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%94%90%E7%89%A9
http://kotobank.jp/word/%E5%94%90%E7%89%A9</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,1 +8,1 @@
-&lt;reb&gt;とうぶつ&lt;/reb&gt;
+&lt;reb&gt;からもの&lt;/reb&gt;
@@ -11,2 +11,1 @@
-&lt;reb&gt;からもの&lt;/reb&gt;
-&lt;re_inf&gt;&amp;ok;&lt;/re_inf&gt;
+&lt;reb&gt;とうぶつ&lt;/reb&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-05-18 01:32:35" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>i think とうぶつ is a modern term and からもの is an archaic term or one used with a historical spin.
=
google hits are not reliable for alternate readings, and that's not what i based the change on.  for instance, if 唐物 is more naturally read as とうぶつ, then people won't add a reading to accompany it; there's no reason to write 唐物[とうぶつ] when everyone knows that's how it's pronounced.  however, when it's being read as 唐物[からもの], they ~~have to~~ add the reading because it is intuitively read as とうぶつ and they need to clarify.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>gg5, meikyo have only とうぶつ, my oubunsha dictionary of archaic japanese, 歴史民俗用語辞典, and wikipedia (in an article with a historic context: 中世から近世にかけて尊ばれた中国製品の雅称) has only からもの
=
世界大百科事典 says:
中国から舶載された品物の総称。これを唐物（とうぶつ）といったときは，中国以外の外国からの輸入品をも含む場合があり，〈とうぶつ〉は，江戸時代以後の表現である。</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-05-18 04:16:18" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus</upd_name>
<upd_detl>when I type からもの, my (standard windows) converter turns it 
into 唐物 (as one word, pressing space changes both at once) 
without any problems, but when I type とうぶつ that's not 
recognized as a single word and I get two separate lines 
under each kanji (i.e. pressing space changes only one kanji 
) and 党物 etc.
Reading 唐 as から isn't that uncommon either (唐揚げ etc.), 
so I don't think it's the case that everybody would 
automatically assume it's read as とうふつ over からもの.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-05-18 22:55:49" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I note that GG5 only has 唐物/とうぶつ, which supports Rene's position. I'm quite comfortable with とうぶつ going first.
My IME (Canna dictionary) does the same, but really that is not an argument for one reading or the other for a specific lexeme like this one.
I see for 唐物屋 Daijirin has both とうぶつや and からものや with quite different meanings.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>GG5</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,1 +8,1 @@
-&lt;reb&gt;からもの&lt;/reb&gt;
+&lt;reb&gt;とうぶつ&lt;/reb&gt;
@@ -11,1 +11,1 @@
-&lt;reb&gt;とうぶつ&lt;/reb&gt;
+&lt;reb&gt;からもの&lt;/reb&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-07 01:21:21" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_diff>@@ -18,0 +19 @@
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hist;&lt;/misc&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-07 01:35:33" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_detl>Wiki only has からもの. daijr leads w からものや for its 唐物屋 entry. I think it should come first, despite what the kokugos say.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2022-08-08 04:52:08" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'll swap them.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>Koj &amp; daijr/a have からもの; 明解/新明解 have とうぶつ.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8 +8 @@
-&lt;reb&gt;とうぶつ&lt;/reb&gt;
+&lt;reb&gt;からもの&lt;/reb&gt;
@@ -11 +11 @@
-&lt;reb&gt;からもの&lt;/reb&gt;
+&lt;reb&gt;とうぶつ&lt;/reb&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>