jmdict
1530510
Active
(id:
2071209)
<entry id="2071209" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>1530510</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>無駄</keb>
<ke_inf>&ateji;</ke_inf>
<ke_pri>ichi1</ke_pri>
<ke_pri>news1</ke_pri>
<ke_pri>nf15</ke_pri>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>徒</keb>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>むだ</reb>
<re_pri>ichi1</re_pri>
<re_pri>news1</re_pri>
<re_pri>nf15</re_pri>
</r_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>ムダ</reb>
<re_nokanji/>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<pos>&adj-na;</pos>
<gloss>futility</gloss>
<gloss>waste</gloss>
<gloss>uselessness</gloss>
<gloss>pointlessness</gloss>
<gloss>idleness</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2016-12-21 21:22:10" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_refs>Daijr, Daijs</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,0 +9,3 @@
+</k_ele>
+<k_ele>
+<keb>徒</keb></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2016-12-22 00:11:24" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-07 15:03:19" stat="A">
<upd_uid>johan</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Johan Råde</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>-> adj glosses</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>gg5 G-ngrams</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -22,3 +22,4 @@
-<gloss>futility</gloss>
-<gloss>uselessness</gloss>
-<gloss>pointlessness</gloss>
+<gloss>futile</gloss>
+<gloss>useless</gloss>
+<gloss>pointless</gloss>
+<gloss>vain</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-07 16:16:32" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I don't agree. Noun usage is common. (e.g. 時間の無駄)</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>G n-grams:
無駄を 196291
無駄が 231405</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-07 19:02:38" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Johan Råde</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>adj usage is by far more common</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>G n-grams
無駄 7344122
無駄に 2318019
無駄な 1874387
無駄だ 314079
無駄が 231382
無駄で 161618
無駄の 230305
無駄を 196291
無駄と 100103
無駄は 40152
無駄も 25074</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-08 09:38:37" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I know but typically we use noun glosses if noun usage is common.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-09 04:31:58" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Most of the ~200 sentences are of the ...だ/だった/です type, which is interesting as 無駄な is very common in the wild.
This is a tough one. 中辞典 and ルミナス only have adjectival glosses. GG5 has both:
futility; uselessness; idleness.
～な useless; fruitless; futile; ineffective; ineffectual; unavailing;...
Perhaps we can ro that too?</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>無駄だった 68824
無駄だ 314107
無駄です 142691
無駄ではない 41614</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -21 +20,0 @@
-<pos>&n;</pos>
@@ -26,0 +26,7 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&n;</pos>
+<gloss>futility</gloss>
+<gloss>uselessness</gloss>
+<gloss>pointlessness</gloss>
+<gloss>idleness</gloss>
+</sense></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-09 16:49:43" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I still feel a single noun sense is enough (the mental conversion from noun -> adjective isn't difficult) but someone else can have the final word.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>gg5, prog</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -21,0 +22 @@
+<gloss>wasteful</gloss>
@@ -28,0 +30 @@
+<gloss>waste</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-13 19:29:25" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>i agree that it should generally be n, but i'm okay with adjectival for this one</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>koj, daij, etc.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -5,0 +6 @@
+<ke_inf>&ateji;</ke_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-13 19:30:04" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>do we need the noun sense at all? obvious from the meaning of the adjective</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-14 00:16:34" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>With most other 形容動詞 entries, we use noun glosses if noun usage is somewhat common (even when adjectival usage is more common).
For that reason, I argue we should use noun glosses here.
I'm not too bothered about having a separate [adj-na] sense but I am opposed to dropping noun glosses altogether.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-14 02:45:08" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>OK. We can leave this one with both.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-14 04:21:27" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I don't like splitting adj-na/n here because it's very inconsistent with how we usually format our entries. If we decided to always
split out the various PoS (like GG5 does) that'd be one thing, but as we haven't, I don't really see how this is a special case that
warrants splitting.
On glossing a single sense like an adj-na or n, I don't have a strong opinion but I don't have an issue with basing it on the most
common usage. I do feel this is something that needs to be properly formalize in our editing guidelines though, instead of relying
on editors being aware of "what we usually do in these cases."</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-14 09:16:22" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Johan Råde</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>a topic for the mailing list?</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-05-20 09:14:00" stat="A">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Let's close this for now. If we want to move adj-na to the front we can do so later (pending the results of the discussion on the
mailing list).</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -20,0 +21 @@
+<pos>&n;</pos>
@@ -22,8 +22,0 @@
-<gloss>futile</gloss>
-<gloss>wasteful</gloss>
-<gloss>useless</gloss>
-<gloss>pointless</gloss>
-<gloss>vain</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-06-04 21:30:35" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Opencooper</upd_name>
<upd_detl>Worth including? I've seen it written like this a few times. We also have 「ムダ毛」.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>無駄 7345062
ムダ 1600823
無駄な 1874553
ムダな 166755</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -19,0 +20,4 @@
+<r_ele>
+<reb>ムダ</reb>
+<re_nokanji/>
+</r_ele></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-06-04 22:57:58" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>