jmdict
2132050
Active
(id:
1973210)
<entry id="1973210" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>2132050</ent_seq>
<r_ele>
<reb>ものを</reb>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&conj;</pos>
<pos>&prt;</pos>
<s_inf>usu. at sentence end; with nuance of strong discontent</s_inf>
<gloss>although</gloss>
<gloss>but</gloss>
<gloss>even though</gloss>
<gloss>I wish that</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2007-01-21 00:00:00" stat="A">
<upd_detl>Entry created</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2010-12-11 00:08:26" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Hendrik</upd_name>
<upd_detl>This is an entry from KD that comes up when using "Translate Words" - as
regards everyday usage, i'd like to suggest that ものを is neither "arch" nor
usually indicative of a complaint.
And, by the way, every time i mention the "Translate Words" function i have to
go back and check what it is called, since that name just won't stick in my
mind - it overlaps conceptually too much with "Word Search", which results in
"Word Translation", and i wonder whether it might not be useful to label the
two functions along the lines of "Single Term Lookup" and "Multiple Term
Lookup"...</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2010-12-16 06:57:57" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Hendrik</upd_name>
<upd_detl>... or, perhaps leave "Word search" as it is and call the second function
"Text Glossing" (this would be a succinct expression that fits into the
limited space of the menu bar) - anything but "translate words", which is
exactly what "word search" means in practice. :-)</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2010-12-21 08:21:24" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>M&T say: "a disjunctive coordinate conjunction expressing the meaning of "although" with the speaker's strong feeling of discontent"</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>GG5, 新和英中辞典, Makino & Tsutsui DAJG</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,3 +8,5 @@
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<misc>&arch;</misc>
-<gloss>particle usually indicating a complaint</gloss>
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
+<gloss>although (with nuance of strong discontent)</gloss>
+<gloss>but</gloss>
+<gloss>even though</gloss>
+<gloss>I wish ....</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2010-12-21 08:30:22" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Fishing around, I see it's also an abbreviation of XXXものをください, e.g. Eijiro: "彼と同じものを。 : Whatever he's having." One of the two sentence-end usages in the Tanakas is like this - the other is the grumpy one.
Is this valid? I suggest a second sense.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2010-12-21 08:51:15" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>i think it's a 'sentence-ending particle' or a 'conjuctive particle', i.e., listed as
接助/終助 in kokugos, and naoko chino's 'all about particles' has it:
1. indicating resentment/complaint at the end of a sentence ("if only...")
-
i don't know about other senses. i'm not sure that [おいしい]ものを would be
any different than something like ペンを there</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2010-12-21 22:53:42" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>OK, I'll see how this goes.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -9,0 +9,2 @@
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>usu. at sentence end</s_inf></upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2010-12-26 04:00:26" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Hendrik</upd_name>
<upd_detl>I had prepared the following entry, but the system cannot accept it as written
(for example, it does not recognize 'n+prt', something like which is needed in
this case)... sigh... i find dealing with this new system a discouraging chore...
=====
[1][n+prt]
[note="usu. between two verbs or verb phrases"]
nominalizer (expressing reason, situation, etc.) [see=物] followed by
objective case marker [see=を])
[2][exp]
[note="usu. preceding a verb or verb phrase"]
thing; stuff [see=物] (followed by objective case marker [see=を])
[3][conj,prt]
[note="usu. at sentence end"]
although (with nuance of strong discontent); but; even though; I wish ....
=====
Comment (justification):
* my original reason for bringing up this entry last week was the absence of an
explanation that i have expressed here via sense 1 and 2 (sense order adjusted
to reflect the perceived order of frequency of occurrence). With such an
explanation absent, someone who is not well-versed in Japanese gets the wrong
impression that sense 3 was the norm or default, which it is not by a large
margin: the most common usages are the nominalizing function and the usage as
simple noun (Rene points rightly to the likes of ぺンを, and even in JEDIC itself
you have evidence like ものを言う). OTOH, one might say that people who
understand the situation already don't need such dictionary entries at all, which
would leads us back to the question of who the a target audience is (i am all for
keeping it as broad as possible - like most general dictionaries do - and if we
agree on this, i think my suggestions for sense 1 and 2 are useful).
(sub note: a few days ago, while i was preparing a detailed explanation - with
references - for the senses i just added, my browser crashed and i was unable
to return to this topic before you released this item)</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2011-01-02 00:11:52" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I don't think it's possible or desirable to cater to every possible parsing of the
dictionary's entries.
もの+を in the senses listed above is not idiomatic, and it's better parsed by
our two existing entries for もの and を rather than trying to force them
together unnaturally into this entry</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2011-01-03 10:36:42" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Hendrik</upd_name>
<upd_refs>I agree, re: "it is not idiomatic" - that is exactly the reason why i raised this
issue. :-) I have the feeling you may have missed my point: it is not my aim to
account for all possible parsings but (since no algorithm can, quite
understandably, parse as competently as knowledgeable humans do) to
mitigate the fact that the database habitually offers up this idiomatic
expression (the only sense currently listed) which in most cases is simply
wrong. If all this can be expressed without going into the details i previously
suggested, then i'd be very happy - as it stands, what comes up seems to me
worse than no result at all.
IOW, what i think needs to be said (in some way) is, "in most cases this has no
meaning beyond its standard grammatical function, but in some cases,
especially if at the end of a sentence, it can mean the following: ..." - even
just a CODE pointing to such an explanation would be useful (there are more
expressions in the database that i'd like to see looked after in the same
manner)
Ah, and by the way, "Happy New Year!"...</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2011-01-11 07:28:36" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>OK to close this one now?</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2011-01-11 09:10:30" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>AFAIC, I think so. I didn't notice there had been a new comment on it.
Happy new year.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-02-25 04:12:30" stat="A">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -10,2 +10,2 @@
-<s_inf>usu. at sentence end</s_inf>
-<gloss>although (with nuance of strong discontent)</gloss>
+<s_inf>usu. at sentence end; with nuance of strong discontent</s_inf>
+<gloss>although</gloss>
@@ -14 +14 @@
-<gloss>I wish ....</gloss>
+<gloss>I wish that</gloss></upd_diff>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>