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Re: [edict-jmdict] 愛する issues

1) If you remove the (vs-x) from 愛す(v5s,vs-x,vt), it will cause no problems.
As I understand it, the conjugation chart for 愛する(vs-s) contains all possible conjugations for 愛す(vs-x) (and then some) save for one: 愛す itself (which is used as a 終止 形). If you removed the (vs-x) tag, 愛す would still exist in the database as (v5s,vt), so there would never be any lookup problems.
The problem with removing the (vs-x) tags comes from the other words like 閲す(vs-x) and 謁す(vs-x) that would cease to exist as entries if you removed the tag. Of course, that could be okay. す is a predictable classical form of する, just like 四段 is a predictable classical form of 五段. I think the only reasons Daijirin makes an effort to include 閲 す, 謁す, etc. are: 1) to draw attention to which of the 〜す forms can be used as (v5s) and which ones can't; and 2) for completeness/consistency.
You could go the same route with 閲す, 謁す, etc. that you did with 得る[うる]. Retain them, and label them as (exp), letting the conjugation work be done entirely by 閲す る, 謁する, etc. Of course, that doesn't make as much sense here. 得る[うる] is a single throw-away irregular "verb", while 閲す, 謁す, etc. are members of a large regular verb class.
2) I don't like the idea of leaving 〜さない as the negative conjugation in the (vs-s) chart. As I pointed out, there are lots of other conjugations for which the 愛す(v5s) form is prevalent over the equivalent 愛する(vs-s) form. I don't see any reason to single out 〜さない and leave it there. Plus, doing so leaves 愛しない (which is 100% grammatically correct, and not uncommon--20k Yahoo hits) without an entry.
Besides. If you look at the (vs-s) entries for which I *didn't* add a (v5s) equivalent, I'll think you'll find that 〜さない is far less common than 〜しない. For example (going by Yahoo here because I don't trust Google's results quantitatively, although they always agree that 〜しない is greater): 

"関しない" = 71000 hits; "関さない" = 934 hits
"対しない" = 18000 hits; "対さない" = 565 hits
"了しない" = 2210 hits; "了さない" = 9 hits
However, the less-common 〜さない form is still the one that's showing up for each of these verbs on their conjugation charts.
I say just x-ref all of the 〜する(vs-s) forms to their equivalent 〜す(v5s) forms and vice versa. People will figure out what's going on. 


Rene



On 11-Sep-08, at 1:54 AM, Jim Breen wrote:


We've been having a discussion on the EDICT/JMdict feedback system
about the conjugation of Xする verbs. I want to move it here, as
that system is a bit clunky for proper dialogues.

The issue raise was whether WWWJDIC's tables were correct about the
-さない inflections, which is what I'd been taught (by NSoJs).
That generated page, BTB, had been vetted and cleared by some NSoJ
language teachers too.

Rene commented:

=========================================================
Yes. I'm close to 100% certain that they're wrong.
They aren't even self-consistent. Like the page assumes that "愛さない" uses さ as its -nai stem, but "愛せず" uses せ as its -nai stem for some reason.
The former is properly attributed to 愛す (v5s), and the latter to 愛する (vs-s) or 愛す (vs-s). The ず form of 愛す is 愛さ ず, which isn't accounted for on the conjugation page at all. (Even though 愛さず is more common than 愛せず based on 
web hits.)
Compare (the ones with asterisks aren't accounted for on your conjugation page): 
愛せず (from 愛する/愛す vs-s) = 23,500 googits
愛さず (from 愛す v5s) = 141,000 googits*****

愛しよう (from 愛する/愛す vs-s) = 7,520 googits
愛そう (from 愛す v5s) = 141,000 googits (although some are probably false 
positives)*****

愛できる (from 愛する/愛す vs-s) = 2,120 googits
愛せる (from 愛す v5s) = 458,000 googits*****

愛すれば (from 愛する/愛す vs-s) = 82,900 googits
愛せば (from 愛す v5s) = 66,100 googits*****
愛せ brings up too many false positives to make a comparison with 
愛しろ/愛せよ.
Now, Wikipedia and kokugo dictionaries DO list さ as one possible 未然形 
ending for する in modern Japanese:
し（せ・さ）・し・する・する・すれ・しろ（せよ）
So it seems *possible* that you could attribute さない and さず to する. However, the さ here seems to be limited to use when creating the passive さ-れる and the causative さ-せる. The ない is always supposed used as し-ない. 

Here's the smoking gun, from Meikyo's entry for ない:
【語法】(1)動詞、動詞型活用の助動詞の未然形に付く。サ変 動詞は「し」に付いて 「しない」となる。*****なお、「愛しない」は「愛する (サ変)」に、「愛さない」は 
「愛す(五段)」に付いたもの。*****
====================================================================== ========== 

and later:
====================================================================== ========== 
One more thing.
I assume that the reason that する is labeled as (vs-s) is because it was being considered as having that extra "special" conjugation さない in the case of things like 愛する and 介する, but not in the case of regular (vs) verbs like 勉強する and 表現する. I think it would actually make a lot more sense, and be more consistent 
to flip things around.
If the カ変 verb 来る is tagged (vk), not (vk-s), then the サ変 verb する should be (vs), not (vs-s). The (vs-s) tag would actually be better on things like 勉強 and 表現, since the additional "s" could imply that you have to "suffix" the 
"suru" yourself.

Of course the easier path to consistency would just be to change (vk)
-> (vk-s),
but that seems a little less sensible.
====================================================================== ========== 

I'm very tempted to:
(a) for the 愛す, etc. verbs simply call them "v5s". In what way will they 
not conjugate correctly (if at all)?
(b) leave the verb tables as they are for the "vs-s" verbs, but add a footnote saying that the "さない", etc. inflections really come from the す version of the verb, but thse days many Japanese regard them as part of the する version. I note 
that big JEs such as GG5 simply don't even list 愛す.

Jim

--
Jim Breen
Honorary Senior Research Fellow
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/