| 22. |
A 2025-08-24 07:02:45 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
Quiet. |
| 21. |
A* 2025-08-16 06:44:24 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| 20. |
A 2025-08-16 06:44:03 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
I'll close and reopen for a bit. To recap. the main change has been to drop the following senses:
---------
[3][aux-v,v5s]
[note="aux. verb indicating the causative"]
to let; to allow; to cause
[4][aux-v,v5s]
[note="aux. verb indicating the granting of permission"]
to be permitted to
[5][aux-v,v5s][hon]
[note="aux. verb used as an honorific for others' actions"]
to do |
| 19. |
A* 2025-08-07 19:10:48 Sombrero1
|
| |
Comments: |
I see. Then I have nothing more to add |
| 18. |
A* 2025-07-30 04:46:33 Non
|
| |
Comments: |
It did not, I was simply addressing the short causative.
As to references, not really. Your best reference on this will be modern standard Japanese; さす is at best understood but not used - you do not really ever see 食べさす、 燃えさす or 高めさす, etc.
The short forms that are productive are the short causative-passive される and the short potential れる.
But fortunately, you do not have to take my word for it as both of the Imabi links mention that ～さす is unacceptable for most speakers - including both quotations you pulled from them.
I will just repeat one here:
"There is also the short causative 燃えさす for 燃えさせる, but this form is usually △・X for most speakers."
The △ and X denote that 燃えさす is considered either rare/uncommon or wrong by most, respectively; and I personally suspect that much of the rare/uncommon evaluations are being influenced by dialects and archaisms.
Whichever the case, △・X denotes a low level of acceptability and productivity.
And one more quote from the second link:
"The modern さす is almost nonexistent in Standard Japanese"
Do note that this is only about the standard dialect; as mentioned before, there are other dialects in which さす is the fully productive causative and させる is nowhere be be found. |
|
(show/hide 17 older log entries)
|
| 17. |
A* 2025-07-29 17:32:28 Sombrero1
|
| |
Comments: |
I didn't mean this to come across as "your changes are wrong", so I hope it didn't. It was more of "this could've also happened, and maybe we should have this in some way", though I realize this entry is probably not the best place, anyway.
I also didn't know that it's barely productive/deemed unacceptable, do you happen to have any (recommendations/links for) resources on that topic?
They would certainly interest me. |
| 16. |
A* 2025-07-29 15:11:27 Non
|
| |
Comments: |
さす Is not a productive causative auxiliary in standard modern Japanese be it short or otherwise, and is outright deemed unacceptable by the vast majority of speakers outside of archaisms, in which case it is always 二段.
It can be a causative auxiliary in certain dialects of western Japan - some of which even shifted its paradigm from 二段 to 五段 - but it is not really a shorter causative, it is just the causative of those dialects.
In any case, this entry refers to a standalone, seemingly non-dialectal 五段 verb; the other senses, though applicable to the 五段 causative auxiliary of some dialects, would need the appropriate dialect tag (which I do not think we even have) and should probably be their own entry anyway.
The status of す as a "short causative" auxiliary is also debatable, it is not nearly as productive as せる・させる, does not descend from the archaic 二段 す and is not really indicating causation but rather transitivity.
The reason it is reinterpreted as a causative (or vice versa) is due to semantic overlap between a transitive verb and an intransitive causative.
I will hold off the urge to write 2 paragraphs on this as the previously linked Imabi page, "Causative Form Issues", already goes over that nicely. |
| 15. |
A* 2025-07-29 08:08:24 Sombrero1
|
| |
Refs: |
https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/28522/shorter-causative-form-popularity
https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/78130/how-acceptable-is-it-to-use-持たす-instead-of-持たせる?noredirect=1&lq=1
https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/78032/how-was-組まされた-conjugated
Sankoku:
さ・す
｟助動(五型)｠〔使役(しえき)の助動詞。上一段・下一段・カ変の動詞につく〕
「させる」の話しことば的・方言的な形。
「子どもに食べ━・ここへかけさしてください」
区別 ⇨す。
区別 す:
「言わさない」 「言わして」 「言わす」など「す」を使う形は、「言わせない」 「言わせて」 「言わせる」など「せる」を使う形よりも、一般(いっぱん)に話しことば的・方言的。
「言わす」など終止形は、下二段活用の文語助動詞「す」をつけた形と同じなので、文語的にもなる。助動詞「さす」と「させる」の関係も同じ。
Shinsen and most other refs:
さす
助動〘古語〙(サセ｜サセ｜サス｜サスル｜サスレ｜サセヨ)
〔一、二段活用・サ変・カ変動詞の未然形につく〕
❶他に動作をさせる意（使役）を表す。…させる。
[other senses have been excluded]
Also, Imabi says this (which slightly goes against the references above):
https://imabi.org/the-causative-i-～させる-～せる/
"The 五段-conjugating ～さす・す are corruptions of the Classical Japanese renditions of the 一段-conjugating ～させる・せる, whose 終止形 would have been rendered as ～さす・す. This corruption is only valid for the 連用形, which in turn provides 言わせた・言わした (made…say) as possible forms, albeit with the latter sounding dialectal. Another contending issue as to why 見さす is marked as unnatural/incorrect is that 見さす may be interpreted as 見る + the supplementary verb ～止（さ）す to mean “to pause watching.” "
https://imabi.org/causative-form-issues/
"There is also the short causative 燃えさす for 燃えさせる, but this form is usually △・X for most speakers." |
| |
Comments: |
May or may not have been misconstrued previously, although the former sense 5 is definitely archaic.
It seems most dictionaries don't devote an extra entry to the modern short causative (which is incidentally identical to the archaic causative す・さす, it just has a 五段 conjugation now).
Even GendaiShinkoku7 and Meikyo3, which are some of the most recent dictionaries, don't bother with it (odd).
But as indicated by Sankoku and the references above (and the fact that I and another person I know encountered the modern short causative pretty early on), there is some relevance.
So there is a distinction to be made here between modern 五段 colloquial auxiliary usage of す・さす, archaic/formal 下二段 auxiliary usage of す・さす,
and the non-dependent formal or literary verb さす (サ変「す」の未然形「せ」 ＋ 使役・尊敬の助動詞「さす」：せさす ＞ さす.
I assume the first usage is readily distinguished from the second by advanced/native speakers(whom I don't belong to) given the context of usage.
I actually don't have the time right now to propose something, but I will have some later today or tomorrow.
I just thought it might be helpful to have this out here, in case anybody else already wishes to comment on this or propose changes. |
| 14. |
A* 2025-07-27 05:56:13 Non
|
| |
Refs: |
Daijirin, Daijisen |
| |
Comments: |
This entry has the following issues:
1. While I could find a 五段 verb さす that has no kanji and is a synonym for the causative and permissive senses of させる, it is not an auxiliary verb, making all senses past [1] and [2] dubious.
2. Those senses were most likely made from confusion between the verb above, and the archaic す・さす (antecedents to modern せる・させる).
With the above in mind, I am arguing that [3]-[5] be removed. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -16,21 +15,0 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
-<pos>&v5s;</pos>
-<s_inf>aux. verb indicating the causative</s_inf>
-<gloss>to let</gloss>
-<gloss>to allow</gloss>
-<gloss>to cause</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
-<pos>&v5s;</pos>
-<s_inf>aux. verb indicating the granting of permission</s_inf>
-<gloss>to be permitted to</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
-<pos>&v5s;</pos>
-<misc>&hon;</misc>
-<s_inf>aux. verb used as an honorific for others' actions</s_inf>
-<gloss>to do</gloss> |
| 13. |
A 2024-12-13 22:42:13 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| 12. |
A* 2024-11-22 20:48:17 Stephen Kraus <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
Daijirin's definition for our sense 06 ("swidden"):
焼き畑のこと。もと武蔵国に多くある「指谷(さすがや)」という地名はこれに由来するといわれる。 |
| |
Comments: |
I don't like having a noun sense merged with verbs like this. According to daijirin the etymology is unrelated.
I think it would be better to split it out. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -37,5 +36,0 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&n;</pos>
-<misc>&arch;</misc>
-<gloss>swidden</gloss> |
| 11. |
A 2018-06-15 11:40:11 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
Trimming a little. |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -22 +22 @@
-<s_inf>auxiliary verb indicating the causative</s_inf>
+<s_inf>aux. verb indicating the causative</s_inf>
@@ -30 +30 @@
-<s_inf>auxiliary verb indicating that one has been granted the permission to do something</s_inf>
+<s_inf>aux. verb indicating the granting of permission</s_inf>
@@ -37 +37 @@
-<s_inf>auxiliary verb used as an honorific for others' actions</s_inf>
+<s_inf>aux. verb used as an honorific for others' actions</s_inf> |
| 10. |
A* 2018-06-15 02:04:25 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Diff: |
@@ -22 +22,4 @@
-<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb indicating the causative</gloss>
+<s_inf>auxiliary verb indicating the causative</s_inf>
+<gloss>to let</gloss>
+<gloss>to allow</gloss>
+<gloss>to cause</gloss>
@@ -27 +30,2 @@
-<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb indicating that one has been granted the permission to do something</gloss>
+<s_inf>auxiliary verb indicating that one has been granted the permission to do something</s_inf>
+<gloss>to be permitted to</gloss>
@@ -32 +36,3 @@
-<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb used as an honorific for others' actions</gloss>
+<misc>&hon;</misc>
+<s_inf>auxiliary verb used as an honorific for others' actions</s_inf>
+<gloss>to do</gloss> |
| 9. |
A 2014-01-09 05:07:10 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
Fair enough. |
| 8. |
A* 2014-01-09 03:58:09 Marcus Richert
|
| |
Comments: |
if no editor has any idea what "more active" means, we can't
expect the users to do either |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -23 +22,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2568020">させる・1</xref>
@@ -30 +28,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2568020">させる・2</xref>
@@ -32,7 +29,0 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
-<pos>&v5s;</pos>
-<xref type="see" seq="2568020">させる・3</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2568020">させる・3</xref>
-<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb used to make verbs more "active"</gloss> |
| 7. |
A 2014-01-08 06:06:24 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
sitting for months with no changes. closing |
| 6. |
A* 2013-11-13 04:01:20 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
i think it might refer to this, i.e. transitive vs. intransitive. meikyo:
自動詞の表す事柄を引き起こす意の、他動的な表現を作る。
「人を疲れ━音」
「心を乱れ━」 |
| |
Comments: |
does sense 5 overlap with sense 3? also, i'm not clear on the difference between sense 4 and sense 2 |
| 5. |
A* 2013-10-16 18:21:57 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
I don't know either what the "more active" means. It was in the original submission. |
| 4. |
A* 2013-09-25 05:25:15 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
not "extreme" |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -45,1 +45,1 @@
-<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb used as an extreme honorific for others' actions</gloss>
+<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb used as an honorific for others' actions</gloss> |
| 3. |
A* 2013-09-25 01:42:38 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
"auxiliary verb used to make verbs more "active""
what does it mean, really? |
| |
Diff: |
@@ -22,2 +22,2 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2568010">させる・1</xref>
-<gloss>auxiliary verb indicating the causative</gloss>
+<xref type="see" seq="2568020">させる・1</xref>
+<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb indicating the causative</gloss>
@@ -28,2 +28,2 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2568010">させる・2</xref>
-<gloss>auxiliary verb indicating that one has been granted the permission to do something</gloss>
+<xref type="see" seq="2568020">させる・2</xref>
+<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb indicating that one has been granted the permission to do something</gloss>
@@ -34,2 +34,2 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2568010">させる・3</xref>
-<gloss>auxiliary verb used to make verbs more "active"</gloss>
+<xref type="see" seq="2568020">させる・3</xref>
+<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb used to make verbs more "active"</gloss>
@@ -40,2 +40,2 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2568010">させる・4</xref>
-<gloss>auxiliary verb used as an extreme honorific for others' actions</gloss>
+<xref type="see" seq="2568020">させる・4</xref>
+<gloss g_type="expl">auxiliary verb used as an extreme honorific for others' actions</gloss> |
| 2. |
A 2011-06-22 23:50:04 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Comments: |
OK. |
| 1. |
A* 2011-06-22 17:31:39 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
|
| |
Refs: |
koj, daij, meikyo |
| |
Comments: |
not sure if these are really aux-v or suffixes, or what. just copying what's already there |