See below.

I came. I saw. I failed.

でも、いったいなに、おもしろいでしたよ。

[I hope that is right!]

I think the entry is already quite clear.  I don't see why this entry should be 
singled out for addition of romaji, and I really don't see how adding romaji would 
help in any case.

See below.

I appreciate your taking all this trouble over my submission. It is just a pity that the system does not allow you to include Japanese in the glosses.

Just one final thought before you close the discussion down. I know that you do not like using romaji, but would it be intolerable to include it in this case, for example: (e.g. "why in the world? (ittainaze)"), etc.

What you are raising is the issue of having examples of the use of 一体. That 一体なぜ is one such, rather than it being a formal dictionary entry. It's the same in GG5, etc.
In JMdict we are sticking with the appropriate (I think) choice of what actually are headwords, and having examples, such as 一体なぜ, separate. If you look up 一体 in WWWJDIC you'll see the example "一体どこで彼に会ったんだ。 Where on earth did you meet him?". Normally we try and have one example per sense, but I have just flagged "いったいなぜ彼を駅に連れて行ったの？" as well (it will appear in a week, as Tatoeba's downloads are prepared weekly.)

See below.

Thank you for giving the time to explain your stand on this matter. I appreciate that because I am the novice here and I am keen to understand the complexities of the Japanese language. As I slowly work my way through Japanese text, looking for starting points and ending points of the sentence structure, I am motivated to search your site for help. When my initial search criteria does not give me any assistance, I try all sorts of other searches and sometimes I find the answer. In that way, when I have found the answer, I make a submission because I think that it may help another novice on the same route.

As to this submission, it is true that many examples of the Japanese “string of text symbols” can be found in the example sentences in the Tanaka corpus and that is, of course, some help, but they do not necessarily help with the definitive meaning of the particular “string of text symbols”, nor do they specifically help one to discover where a “headword” will start or stop so that individual entries can be analysed. In short, as between Japanese and English it often goes from idiom to idiom.

I think that it is the word “dictionary” in the context of a language like Japanese which is the hub of the problem. In English, expressions like “what on earth”, are no problem because there are three individual words in a string. Each of these words can be looked up. If I look them up in turn, in any order, e.g., "earth" first, I get the individual meanings, but I accept that I do not get a headword in the dictionary which is “what on earth”. However, [popping in to the library on my roaming] if I look up the word “earth” and read what it states, then – for example in Collins English Dictionary – I find one meaning as this: used as an intensifier in such phrases as “what on earth”, “who on earth”, etc.. Now, that matches what is in your site, except that I cannot look up the individual words for “what on earth”, etc., in Japanese; unless I already know them.

In the Japanese dictionary,“shogakukan”, it carries a link between the headwords “いったいぜんたい” and “いったい”. Likewise on your site, namely:-

一体全体; いったい全体 【いったいぜんたい】 (adv) (emph. form of 一体) ... the heck (e.g. "what the heck?"); ... in the world (e.g. "why in the world?"); ... on earth (e.g. "who on earth?")

However, in shogakukan it gives more. Under the headword “いったい” it gives “一体なぜ....” with the meaning “Why on earth ….”. Thus, like the English dictionary, with that clue, I can look up “なぜ” and see what it means. Also, under the headword “いったいぜんたい” it gives “一体全体どうした....” with a meaning of “What on earth....”, again, if necessary, I can look up “どうした” for its meaning.

My only point is this: that you have taken one helpful step on the road, namely: as in the English dictionary as noted above, by giving English meanings associated with the headword. However, I will not say, “What on earth stops you from including the “いったいなに”, “いったいなせ”, etc.” because I can imagine that a line has to be drawn somewhere; and, of course, you have also explained the mechanics of the system which prevent a simple inclusion under the main “headword”. However, the inclusion of the other expressions individually, which have already been included in English by description, would make it clear to the novice. In addition, it would even make clearer the usage in the helpful sentences in the Tanaka corpus.

I really have to agree with Rene. I think this has been pushed as far as it can go.

I still don't understand why things like いったいなに need to be added.  It's 
just standard use of an adverb.  I would never expect "why on earth" to appear 
in an English-English dictionary, nor いったいなに in a Japanese-Japanese 
dictionary, so why add it to this Japanese-English dictionary itself?  There are 
plenty of example sentences in the Tanaka corpus that give this exact 
example.  I'm not even convinced that 「いったいなに」 gets the parsing of the 
sentence correct in something like 「君は一体何を言おうとしているのか。」I'd 
guess that 一体 applies to 何を言おうとしているのか, not just to 何.

See below.

Thank you for posing that as a question.

To have an expert state the obvious is the basic dream of the novice who does not understand. Unfortunately, the novice usually gets the so called “obvious” from the non-expert; in short, most of the ordinary people who actually speak the language in question. In my own tongue [English], would I believe the general speaker of my tongue when I am told the meaning of some expression? Fortunately, when the language is used in a general context, understanding is easier for the native speaker. However, when the language is used in a specific context of some importance, we often have the great brains of the courtrooms arguing over the meaning.

I have come to regard your site as the living proof of the benefit of having your experts holding discussion over the meaning and understanding of the Japanese language. Moreover, you are not tied to the long delays of the printed published word, e.g., like the OED with 20 odd volumes. When I last exchanged a note with the editors on the meaning of the word “adversarial” and its first usage, they said that my comment was timely because they were just about to start again at “A” and again work their way through to “Z”. The cycle takes years to complete. However, as I understand it, I am sure that they revel in stating the obvious, so much so, that the big OED is, in my view, the dictionary where every beginner should start; unfortunately, the shear size is is the frightener for the novice. 

With your site, sized impedes no one because the overall size is not so obvious to anyone, save those who have created it. So, for my part, to the extent which time and facilities allow you to state the obvious, every novice who searches will applaud your work with equal measure.

Those verb conjugations are machine-generated, and only appear in WWWJDIC. 
Yes, I could put things like:
一体何;一体なに [いったいなに] /(exp) (See 一体)/
but isn't it just stating the obvious? There are a heap of Japanese words (全然, 全部, 本当, etc.) which do similar things.

See below.

I think that I am beginning to understand the situation a little better. Upon reading your comments, I am wondering whether you could deal with the Japanese in a similar manner as you do with various verb endings, for example: すれば seeする. Thus, we would get an entry which reads: 一体なに (いったいなに) see 一体, etc. for each of the variables. In this way, when someone searches for “一体なに”, they will find what they are looking for and then they can click on the cross-reference and find themselves reading your main explanations under “一体” and the result would be clear to most if not all.
I hope that is helpful.

The reason being that legacy programs using the old EDICT format can't cope with Japanese in glosses. That's part of the reason for the <<notes>>.
I'm going to reverse Rene's ordering. The Tanaka sentences have 133 examples for 一体/いったい and 132 of them are for the sense we are discussing. I'd have to renumber all the sense tags (can be done), but really with this sense dominating in modern Japanese, it should be first, regardless of what the 国語s say.
I'm also changing the "exemplar" example in WWWJDIC to a better one. And I'm adding an example sentence for 一体に.

@@ -16,0 +16,7 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&adv;</pos>
+<s_inf>before an interrogative, forms an emphatic question</s_inf>
+<gloss>...the heck (e.g. "what the heck?")</gloss>
+<gloss>...in the world (e.g. "why in the world?")</gloss>
+<gloss>...on earth (e.g. "who on earth?")</gloss>
+</sense>
@@ -37,7 +44,0 @@
-<sense>
-<pos>&adv;</pos>
-<s_inf>before an interrogative, forms an emphatic question</s_inf>
-<gloss>...the heck (e.g. "what the heck?")</gloss>
-<gloss>...in the world (e.g. "why in the world?")</gloss>
-<gloss>...on earth (e.g. "who on earth?")</gloss>
-</sense>

Japanese cannot be added to glosses.

See below.

That looks good, but would it not be possible to include the Japanese reading for each "e.g" [e.g. "what the heck?" (一体なに))] so that what is clear to the expert would also be clear to the novice?

This was in response to Francis's comment:
I can see where you are coming from in your comment "I've come round to the view that just one of quite a lot of 一体 + XXX constructions" in respect of my rejected submission for "一体なせ".
In view of that, I am wondering if this main entry could have the addition of an explanation like the following:-
gives the expressions like:...the heck, …the world, ...on earth, and followed by various question words, like, なに,　なせ,　どれ, in order to give (e.g. "what the heck?"); (e.g. "why in the world?"); (e.g. "who on earth?")
Something like that may help the novice who is searching for such expressions.

some kind of note is fine with me, although i think the glosses as given are 
sufficiently obvious.  but if it's included, i think the senses should be swapped 
so that it doesn't look like the note applies to the whole word.  the new ordering 
matches the sense ordering of kokugo dictionaries and progressive waei.  
hopefully that wouldn't mess with paul's stuff too much

@@ -16,7 +16,0 @@
-<sense>
-<pos>&adv;</pos>
-<pos>&adj-no;</pos>
-<gloss>...the heck (e.g. "what the heck?")</gloss>
-<gloss>...in the world (e.g. "why in the world?")</gloss>
-<gloss>...on earth (e.g. "who on earth?")</gloss>
-</sense>
@@ -39,1 +32,1 @@
-<pos>&adv;</pos>
+<pos>&n-adv;</pos>
@@ -44,0 +37,7 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&adv;</pos>
+<s_inf>before an interrogative, forms an emphatic question</s_inf>
+<gloss>...the heck (e.g. "what the heck?")</gloss>
+<gloss>...in the world (e.g. "why in the world?")</gloss>
+<gloss>...on earth (e.g. "who on earth?")</gloss>
+</sense>

GG5, 新和英中辞典

Fleshing it out a bit.

@@ -22,0 +22,2 @@
+<gloss>to find a clear solution</gloss>
+<gloss>to come to a clean decision</gloss>

gg5, prog, nc

are we quite certain about the gloss for sense 1?

@@ -21,0 +21,1 @@
+<pos>&vt;</pos>
@@ -25,0 +26,1 @@
+<pos>&vt;</pos>

Split out everyday meaning from mathematical meaning

@@ -21,1 +21,0 @@
-<gloss>to divide</gloss>
@@ -24,0 +23,4 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<gloss>to divide</gloss>
+</sense>

just a suggestion: 

when i first learned this word, the definition we learned was "to persevere".  i 
realize it's only a subtle difference from the listed meanings, but to me it's 
always given the best sense of 頑張る, because it includes the idea of not just 
persisting or standing firm, but of doing so in spite of possible adversity.  so i 
thought it might be good additional meaning.

gg5, prog, daij

Tidy-up. Added senses. Doesn't affect the sentences. (We only have sentences indexed to the first three senses.)

@@ -26 +26 @@
-<gloss>to be</gloss>
+<gloss>to turn</gloss>
@@ -32,0 +33 @@
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
@@ -34 +35,3 @@
-<gloss>to prove to be</gloss>
+<gloss>to turn out</gloss>
+<gloss>to end up</gloss>
+<gloss>to prove (to be)</gloss>
@@ -38,0 +42,2 @@
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<s_inf>as ...からなる or ...よりなる</s_inf>
@@ -40,0 +46 @@
+<gloss>to be made up of</gloss>
@@ -44,0 +51,3 @@
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to be completed</gloss>
+<gloss>to be realized</gloss>
@@ -46 +55,2 @@
-<gloss>to be complete</gloss>
+<gloss>to be attained</gloss>
+<gloss>to be accomplished</gloss>
@@ -51,2 +61,4 @@
-<gloss>to change into</gloss>
-<gloss>to be exchanged for</gloss>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to change (into)</gloss>
+<gloss>to turn (into)</gloss>
+<gloss>to transform</gloss>
@@ -57,2 +69,28 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1648720">成り済ます・1</xref>
-<gloss>to play a role</gloss>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to come (to do)</gloss>
+<gloss>to begin (to do)</gloss>
+<gloss>to grow (to do)</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<pos>&vi;</pos>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to come to</gloss>
+<gloss>to amount to</gloss>
+<gloss>to add up to</gloss>
+<gloss>to make</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<pos>&vi;</pos>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to play (the part of)</gloss>
+<gloss>to act as</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<pos>&vi;</pos>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to be used for</gloss>
+<gloss>to be useful for</gloss>
+<gloss>to serve as</gloss>
@@ -66,0 +105 @@
+<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
@@ -69 +108,2 @@
-<s_inf>as お+masu-stem+になる, ご+noun+になる, etc.</s_inf>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<s_inf>as お + masu stem + になる or ご + noun+ になる</s_inf>

@@ -63 +63,2 @@
-<gloss>to be promoted (shogi)</gloss>
+<field>&shogi;</field>
+<gloss>to be promoted</gloss>

i don't think an x-ref between homonyms is a good idea unless there is 
widespread confusion even among native speakers (e.g. as evidenced by a note 
or an x-ref in a japanese-japanese dictionary)

See below.

I agree that you are correct in that my request is for a cross-reference to a homonym and that Rene is also correct in stating that the two words are not linked. That is why I requested a one-way link only.
The difficulty, as I see it, is a question about how one can help the user to get the greatest benefit out of all your hard work; as opposed to one being focused upon conformity with form.
As it seems to me, the predominant entry is based upon the verb “to do” something”, the other is based upon an old form of “being, i.e., なり equals です”.
It seemed to me at the time of researching, and then making the submission, that with so many entries for the reading “なる” it may be of great help to the researcher to have the cross-reference. Thus, when the  user makes a search, the result for “なる” is bound to hit on the predominant entry first . Thus, it seemed good to add a note (9) on that entry which states that there is the other entry without implying a relationship. A little bit like a Google search where sometimes it says, “were you really searching for 'X'”
As an incidental point, when one clicks on the cross-reference in “なる[i.e., 也]” one gets “なり 《形; 態》 (n,adj-no) (uk) (See なりに) style; way; shape; form; appearance; state”. Then one has to scroll up the page for “なり 《也》 (aux-v) (1) (uk) (arch) (meaning ～だ、～である) be (an affirmation); (2) (uk) (arch) (meaning ～にある、～にいる. Usu. なる) (See なる) be (location); (n,suf) (3) (usu. 也) sum of money (used to express an exact sum on a receipt, envelope, certificate, etc.)”. The link back to “なる” works all right. However, maybe that is just my browser, but I thought that I would mention it.

OK.Leave it as-is.

i don't think the two なる entries are equivalent.  (one is a verb, the other is the 
rentaikei of the "auxiliary verb" なり)

You are asking for an xref to a  homonym. That's not usual in dictionaries. There may be a case for merging that other なる into this entry (Dajirin keeps them apart, but then it also splits 為る and 成る.)
I think either we merge them (I'm comfortable with that), or we leave it as it is.

See below.

I have not amended the above, but I am wondering if you could add a [9] with a cross-link to the following:-

なる (suf,adj-f) (1) (arch) (See なり) that is in; (2) who is called; that is called; (3) that is

This very useful entry for the use of "なる" as a suffix is potentially overlooked as the searcher reads through the main entry above and reads all that entry has to say, but does not think to search elsewhere. With such text as "王なる者", this entry explains all.

I am not suggesting that there is a reverse link back to the main entry above. Simply, the suggested link to help the seacher, especially with "鳴る" following the main entry above.

Seems OK.

koj, meikyo, etc.

note could probably use some work

@@ -65,0 +65,6 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<misc>&hon;</misc>
+<s_inf>as お+masu-stem+になる, ご+noun+になる, etc.</s_inf>
+<gloss>to do ...</gloss>
+</sense>

@@ -109 +109 @@
-<s_inf>as お + masu stem + になる or ご + noun+ になる</s_inf>
+<s_inf>as お + verb -masu stem + になる, or ご + noun + になる</s_inf>

gg5, prog, daij

Tidy-up. Added senses. Doesn't affect the sentences. (We only have sentences indexed to the first three senses.)

@@ -26 +26 @@
-<gloss>to be</gloss>
+<gloss>to turn</gloss>
@@ -32,0 +33 @@
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
@@ -34 +35,3 @@
-<gloss>to prove to be</gloss>
+<gloss>to turn out</gloss>
+<gloss>to end up</gloss>
+<gloss>to prove (to be)</gloss>
@@ -38,0 +42,2 @@
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<s_inf>as ...からなる or ...よりなる</s_inf>
@@ -40,0 +46 @@
+<gloss>to be made up of</gloss>
@@ -44,0 +51,3 @@
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to be completed</gloss>
+<gloss>to be realized</gloss>
@@ -46 +55,2 @@
-<gloss>to be complete</gloss>
+<gloss>to be attained</gloss>
+<gloss>to be accomplished</gloss>
@@ -51,2 +61,4 @@
-<gloss>to change into</gloss>
-<gloss>to be exchanged for</gloss>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to change (into)</gloss>
+<gloss>to turn (into)</gloss>
+<gloss>to transform</gloss>
@@ -57,2 +69,28 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1648720">成り済ます・1</xref>
-<gloss>to play a role</gloss>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to come (to do)</gloss>
+<gloss>to begin (to do)</gloss>
+<gloss>to grow (to do)</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<pos>&vi;</pos>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to come to</gloss>
+<gloss>to amount to</gloss>
+<gloss>to add up to</gloss>
+<gloss>to make</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<pos>&vi;</pos>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to play (the part of)</gloss>
+<gloss>to act as</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<pos>&vi;</pos>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<gloss>to be used for</gloss>
+<gloss>to be useful for</gloss>
+<gloss>to serve as</gloss>
@@ -66,0 +105 @@
+<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
@@ -69 +108,2 @@
-<s_inf>as お+masu-stem+になる, ご+noun+になる, etc.</s_inf>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
+<s_inf>as お + masu stem + になる or ご + noun+ になる</s_inf>

@@ -63 +63,2 @@
-<gloss>to be promoted (shogi)</gloss>
+<field>&shogi;</field>
+<gloss>to be promoted</gloss>

i don't think an x-ref between homonyms is a good idea unless there is 
widespread confusion even among native speakers (e.g. as evidenced by a note 
or an x-ref in a japanese-japanese dictionary)

See below.

I agree that you are correct in that my request is for a cross-reference to a homonym and that Rene is also correct in stating that the two words are not linked. That is why I requested a one-way link only.
The difficulty, as I see it, is a question about how one can help the user to get the greatest benefit out of all your hard work; as opposed to one being focused upon conformity with form.
As it seems to me, the predominant entry is based upon the verb “to do” something”, the other is based upon an old form of “being, i.e., なり equals です”.
It seemed to me at the time of researching, and then making the submission, that with so many entries for the reading “なる” it may be of great help to the researcher to have the cross-reference. Thus, when the  user makes a search, the result for “なる” is bound to hit on the predominant entry first . Thus, it seemed good to add a note (9) on that entry which states that there is the other entry without implying a relationship. A little bit like a Google search where sometimes it says, “were you really searching for 'X'”
As an incidental point, when one clicks on the cross-reference in “なる[i.e., 也]” one gets “なり 《形; 態》 (n,adj-no) (uk) (See なりに) style; way; shape; form; appearance; state”. Then one has to scroll up the page for “なり 《也》 (aux-v) (1) (uk) (arch) (meaning ～だ、～である) be (an affirmation); (2) (uk) (arch) (meaning ～にある、～にいる. Usu. なる) (See なる) be (location); (n,suf) (3) (usu. 也) sum of money (used to express an exact sum on a receipt, envelope, certificate, etc.)”. The link back to “なる” works all right. However, maybe that is just my browser, but I thought that I would mention it.

OK.Leave it as-is.

i don't think the two なる entries are equivalent.  (one is a verb, the other is the 
rentaikei of the "auxiliary verb" なり)

You are asking for an xref to a  homonym. That's not usual in dictionaries. There may be a case for merging that other なる into this entry (Dajirin keeps them apart, but then it also splits 為る and 成る.)
I think either we merge them (I'm comfortable with that), or we leave it as it is.

See below.

I have not amended the above, but I am wondering if you could add a [9] with a cross-link to the following:-

なる (suf,adj-f) (1) (arch) (See なり) that is in; (2) who is called; that is called; (3) that is

This very useful entry for the use of "なる" as a suffix is potentially overlooked as the searcher reads through the main entry above and reads all that entry has to say, but does not think to search elsewhere. With such text as "王なる者", this entry explains all.

I am not suggesting that there is a reverse link back to the main entry above. Simply, the suggested link to help the seacher, especially with "鳴る" following the main entry above.

Seems OK.

koj, meikyo, etc.

note could probably use some work

@@ -65,0 +65,6 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&v5r;</pos>
+<misc>&hon;</misc>
+<s_inf>as お+masu-stem+になる, ご+noun+になる, etc.</s_inf>
+<gloss>to do ...</gloss>
+</sense>

@@ -16,1 +16,0 @@
-<pos>&vs;</pos>
@@ -19,0 +18,6 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&vs;</pos>
+<gloss>to charm</gloss>
+<gloss>to fascinate</gloss>
+<gloss>to mesmerize</gloss>
+</sense>

@@ -21,0 +21,4 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&vs;</pos>
+<gloss>to enjoy</gloss>
+</sense>

Why change "ant" to "see"?
I don't think we can really say that タチ has become a reading of 凸.

@@ -4,3 +4,0 @@
-<k_ele>
-<keb>凸</keb>
-</k_ele>
@@ -12,1 +9,1 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1467640">猫・6</xref>
+<xref type="ant" seq="1467640">猫・6</xref>
@@ -14,1 +11,2 @@
-<xref type="see">受け</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="1659120">受け・5</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="1659120">受け・5</xref>
@@ -17,1 +15,1 @@
-<s_inf>often abbreviated 凸 on gay SNS sites</s_inf>
+<s_inf>often abbr. 凸 on gay SNS sites</s_inf>

@@ -4,0 +4,3 @@
+<k_ele>
+<keb>凸</keb>
+</k_ele>
@@ -9,0 +12,4 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="1467640">猫・6</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="1279120">攻め・2</xref>
+<xref type="see">受け</xref>
+<misc>&uk;</misc>
@@ -10,0 +17,1 @@
+<s_inf>often abbreviated 凸 on gay SNS sites</s_inf>

@@ -9,1 +9,1 @@
-<xref type="ant" seq="1467640">猫</xref>
+<xref type="ant" seq="1467640">猫・6</xref>

@@ -9,1 +9,1 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1467640">猫</xref>
+<xref type="ant" seq="1467640">猫</xref>

Entry created