| 18. |
A 2024-05-12 23:50:29 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Basically correct. I wish the note on sense 1 was shorter. |
| 17. |
A* 2024-05-09 06:53:41 Non
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Comments: |
Changing the entry to match せる・させる as it had the same problems as the previous version of that entry.
Unrelated to the above, also changed the note on [2] as it is incorrect；られる is still used as the potential for 来る as こられる and as the potential for certain サ変 where the verb is made from one kanji + する and thus できる does not apply.
This includes verbs such as 決する→決せられる and the ザ変 感ずる→感ぜられる.
Hence, in modern Japanese, use as the potential of 五段 is the only case where it can be said to have truly fallen into complete disuse. |
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Diff: |
@@ -14 +14 @@
-<s_inf>れる for 五段 verbs, られる for 一段 verbs. After the -nai stem of a verb</s_inf>
+<s_inf>～れる connects to -nai stem of 五段 verbs and to サ変 as さ～れる; ～られる connects to -nai stem of 一段 and カ変 verbs and to サ変 as せ～られる</s_inf>
@@ -21 +21 @@
-<s_inf>no imperative form, only on 一段</s_inf>
+<s_inf>no imperative form, not used on 五段 in modern speech</s_inf> |
| 16. |
A 2020-04-17 11:54:48 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I think this entry rather pushes the boundaries, but it's been around for quite a while like this. I'd leave it. |
| 15. |
A* 2020-04-16 03:45:45 dine <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
What about dropping 接続 notes entirely? They belong to grammars instead of dictionaries.
Also, the kana-based traditional analysis is unnecessarily complicated.
The term 未然形/imperfective form is ambiguous in case of godan and sahen verbs
while the term "-nai stem" incorrectly selects the し form of sahen instead of さ required by れる.
I would prefer phonological analyses like "godan -u → -areru (-wareru after vowel), ichidan -ru → -rareru, kuru → korareru, suru → sareru", but that's already in the conjugation tables |
| 14. |
A 2020-04-16 00:48:30 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Entries like this make me feel tired. |
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(show/hide 13 older log entries)
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| 13. |
A* 2020-04-15 09:54:24 dine <...address hidden...>
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Diff: |
@@ -20 +20,3 @@
-<s_inf>no imperative form</s_inf>
+<xref type="see" seq="1191110">可能動詞・かのうどうし</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="1191110">可能動詞・かのうどうし</xref>
+<s_inf>no imperative form, only on 一段</s_inf> |
| 12. |
A 2017-10-11 10:12:22 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 11. |
A* 2017-10-11 05:48:48 Johan Råde <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
we usually refer to 未然形 as "-nai stem".
The note is true for 一段 verbs as well (where all stem forms are identical).
I don't think the xref to 未然形 is needed |
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Diff: |
@@ -13 +12,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="1527750">未然形</xref>
@@ -15 +14 @@
-<s_inf>れる for 五段 verbs, られる for 一段. Follows the imperfective form of (v5) and (vs) verbs</s_inf>
+<s_inf>れる for 五段 verbs, られる for 一段 verbs. After the -nai stem of a verb</s_inf> |
| 10. |
A 2017-10-11 05:13:08 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I've sat on this, not wanting it to be "implemented mechanically without thinking" again. 8-)}
I guess we may as well approve it. As Rene says, probably better not to have merged them, and we could split if we want to. In any case these notes are here. |
| 9. |
A* 2017-08-28 22:47:48 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
yes, that's a great catch. these entries were formerly separate, and the merge between れる and られる messed things up. i think this was a merge that jim and i implemented mechanically without thinking...
=====
-the original note on れる for godan verbs was OK:
"sense 2 is infrequently used in modern Japanese, e.g. 歩ける is favoured over 歩かれる; senses 2-4 lack an imperative form"
-
歩かれる is a potential form, but it is rarely used because 歩ける is used instead.
=====
the original note on られる for ichidan (etc.) verbs was also OK, and this is where the x-ref to ら抜き言葉 was:
"sense 2 is sometimes abbreviated to 〜れる, esp. in colloquial speech; senses 2-4 lack an imperative form"
=====
but the merge combined those two senses and the x-ref, so that now neither the note nor the x-ref are true... contrary to what the note suggests, れる and られる are used all the time in modern japanese, and 歩かれる-->歩ける has nothing to do with ら抜き言葉.
-
in retrospect, i think these should not have been merged, just so the individual usage notes could have been kept. there's really no good way to explain "れる for 五段 verbs, られる for 一段 except when it's ら抜き言葉 for the potential form" without the note getting a little encyclopedic. |
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Diff: |
@@ -21,2 +21 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2087905">ら抜き言葉・らぬきことば</xref>
-<s_inf>no imperative form. Infrequently used in modern Japanese, e.g. 歩ける is favoured over 歩かれる</s_inf>
+<s_inf>no imperative form</s_inf> |
| 8. |
A* 2017-08-24 03:58:05 Miika Sundström <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/可能動詞 |
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Comments: |
I think the note for meaning 2 (potential form) together with the xref to ら抜き言葉 is a bit confusing because ら抜き isn't directly related to 歩く (godan verb) conjugating to 歩ける instead of 歩かれる in modern Japanese.
To improve the situation, the xref could either be removed (not so good because it's related)
OR
the ら抜き言葉 (and ら抜き) definition could be expanded to include a comparison between v5r and v1 potentials like 走る→走れる（godan, NOT ら抜き言葉） and 見る→見れる (ichidan, ら抜き言葉 because it's confused with the modern godan potential conjugation).
(I could have misunderstood but I'm basing this on the Japanese wiki article about 可能動詞. My point is that you shouldn't call godan-ru potentials ら抜き言葉 although they look like it.) |
| 7. |
A 2014-11-24 20:35:04 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Diff: |
@@ -16 +16 @@
-<gloss>indicates passive voice (inc. the "suffering passive")</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates passive voice (incl. the "suffering passive")</gloss> |
| 6. |
A 2011-08-20 14:39:17 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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| 5. |
A* 2011-08-20 02:17:38 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Having said the POS is "aux-v", there is no need to repeat it. |
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Diff: |
@@ -16,1 +16,1 @@
-<gloss>auxiliary verb indicating passive voice (inc. the "suffering passive")</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates passive voice (inc. the "suffering passive")</gloss>
@@ -23,1 +23,1 @@
-<gloss>auxiliary verb indicating the potential form</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates the potential form</gloss>
@@ -29,1 +29,1 @@
-<gloss>auxiliary verb indicating spontaneous occurrence</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates spontaneous occurrence</gloss>
@@ -36,1 +36,1 @@
-<gloss>auxiliary verb used as an honorific for others' actions</gloss>
+<gloss>used as an honorific for others' actions</gloss> |
| 4. |
A* 2011-08-20 01:39:44 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Re-instating xref. |
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Diff: |
@@ -21,0 +21,1 @@
+<xref type="see" seq="2087905">ら抜き言葉・らぬきことば</xref> |
| 3. |
A* 2011-08-20 01:36:35 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Merge discusses elsewhere. Meanings are identical. Tidying notes. |
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Diff: |
@@ -6,0 +6,3 @@
+</r_ele>
+<r_ele>
+<reb>られる</reb>
@@ -12,1 +15,1 @@
-<s_inf>follows the imperfective form of (v5) and (vs) verbs</s_inf>
+<s_inf>れる for 五段 verbs, られる for 一段. Follows the imperfective form of (v5) and (vs) verbs</s_inf>
@@ -18,1 +21,1 @@
-<s_inf>sense 2 is infrequently used in modern Japanese, e.g. 歩ける is favoured over 歩かれる; senses 2-4 lack an imperative form</s_inf>
+<s_inf>no imperative form. Infrequently used in modern Japanese, e.g. 歩ける is favoured over 歩かれる</s_inf>
@@ -24,0 +27,1 @@
+<s_inf>no imperative form</s_inf>
@@ -30,0 +34,1 @@
+<s_inf>no imperative form</s_inf> |
| 2. |
A 2010-08-10 04:03:11 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 1. |
A* 2010-08-06 08:01:35 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Refs: |
koj, daijr, daijs, meikyo |