| 27. |
A 2025-08-24 23:13:35 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Looks OK. |
| 26. |
A* 2025-08-24 14:41:03 Sombrero1
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Refs: |
Sankoku:
で⦅接⦆〔話〕
①それで。そこで。
「━、どうした・━ですね」
②ところで。
「━、次回はいつにしましょう」
Smk:
(接)
それで。〔話し言葉に使う〕
Meikyo has them as well |
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Comments: |
I think this belongs here, rather than into the て entry. The refs do it this way too
Though I also wouldn't hate having a separate entry.
I've encountered these senses quite often now (only in spoken Japanese), I believe having them would be helpful
xrefs may or may not be necessary |
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Diff: |
@@ -24,0 +25,18 @@
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
+<xref type="see" seq="1007000">それで</xref>
+<misc>&col;</misc>
+<gloss>so</gloss>
+<gloss>therefore</gloss>
+<gloss>(and) then</gloss>
+<gloss>accordingly</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
+<xref type="see" seq="1343110">ところで・1</xref>
+<misc>&col;</misc>
+<gloss>by the way</gloss>
+<gloss>incidentally</gloss>
+<gloss>now then</gloss>
+<gloss>well</gloss> |
| 25. |
A 2024-12-15 02:34:06 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Quiet |
| 24. |
A* 2024-12-09 05:29:28 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Reopen for a while. |
| 23. |
A 2024-12-09 05:29:01 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I'm taking this back to where it was mid-August. If anyone wants wants to reinstate some of Non's edits they can do so. |
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Diff: |
@@ -25,26 +24,0 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<s_inf>quantifies limits of action; e.g. time spanned, instances, number of participants, etc.</s_inf>
-<gloss>within</gloss>
-<gloss>in</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<pos>&conj;</pos>
-<s_inf>forms conjunction, compound verb or connects auxiliary; alternative form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf>
-<gloss>and</gloss>
-<gloss>then</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&conj;</pos>
-<gloss>and then</gloss>
-<gloss>so</gloss>
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<xref type="see" seq="2029090">よ・1</xref>
-<s_inf>at sentence-end; indicates certainty, emphasis, etc.</s_inf>
-<dial>&ksb;</dial>
-<gloss>let me tell you</gloss>
-<gloss>don't you know</gloss> |
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(show/hide 22 older log entries)
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| 22. |
A* 2024-08-08 07:25:47 Non
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Comments: |
It has just caught my eye that both [5] and [6] are marked as conjunctions, have similar glosses, and both link back to て. It seems there was both a cross-reference from で to て and one from て to で, and that the previous [4] snatched the one coming て when I raised it to [5].
I shifted them around to circumvent this and have also removed the cross-reference leading from here as it was seemed redundant to have them go both ways. |
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Diff: |
@@ -32,0 +33,7 @@
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
+<s_inf>forms conjunction, compound verb or connects auxiliary; alternative form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf>
+<gloss>and</gloss>
+<gloss>then</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
@@ -36,11 +42,0 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&prt;</pos>
-<pos>&conj;</pos>
-<xref type="see" seq="2654270">て</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2654270">て・1</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2654270">て・1</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2654270">て・1</xref>
-<s_inf>forms conjunction, compound verb or connects auxiliary; alternative form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf>
-<gloss>and</gloss>
-<gloss>then</gloss> |
| 21. |
A* 2024-08-08 05:56:32 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 20. |
A 2024-08-08 05:56:14 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Approving to match the にて split, then reopening in case we want to consider Nonさん's amendments. |
| 19. |
A* 2024-08-08 05:32:57 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Splitting it out. |
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Diff: |
@@ -8,4 +7,0 @@
-<r_ele>
-<reb>にて</reb>
-<re_pri>spec1</re_pri>
-</r_ele>
@@ -14 +10 @@
-<s_inf>indicates location of action; にて is the formal literary form</s_inf>
+<s_inf>indicates location of action</s_inf>
@@ -42 +37,0 @@
-<stagr>で</stagr>
@@ -54 +48,0 @@
-<stagr>で</stagr> |
| 18. |
A* 2024-08-08 01:32:26 Robin Scott <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I agree with Marcus that にて should be split out. We've moved away from these sorts of merges in recent years. |
| 17. |
A* 2024-08-07 07:09:51 Non
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Refs: |
daijs, daijr
https://kobun.weblio.jp/ |
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Comments: |
で Is itself a contraction of にて, hence the meanings are identical*. I think keeping it in one entry reinforces the notion that they are related and used as alternates of one another - plus it saves the need for an additional entry that would be essentially copy-and-pasted from this one.
*I cannot recall ever seeing にて used for the sense I have just added and indeed upon searching for an example I could not find many.
Further, that sense is not even listed under the にて entry for the daij's, which at the very least implicates にて is not commonly used for it.
I also went over to the classical Japanese dictionary of the link above, and it seems にて did not originally hold that meaning.
Still, I do not think much would be gained from a split. Worst case scenario, someone will start using にて left right and centre, but even then, they would at most sound odd while still being understood by any native speaker*.
*Dialectal variation sold separately. |
| 16. |
A* 2024-08-07 04:56:13 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Separate issue but I think we should undo the にて merge. Even if the meaning is identical (I'm not sure whether that's the case or not), it's a different register. |
| 15. |
A* 2024-08-07 03:17:03 Non
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Refs: |
daijr, particularly on(イ): 〚(2)動作・作用が行われる時を表す。(ア)動作が行われる時期を表す。「では」「でも」の形をとることが多い。「現在―は,簡単に解決する問題だ」(イ)動作・作用の期限・限度を表す。「新幹線は一時間―二百キロも走る」「一〇分間―答えてください」〛 |
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Comments: |
Added a new sense, made it [4] and moved the previous 4th-6th senses up a number. I acknowledge the note is rather long but "quantifies limits of action" by itself seemed too abstract to be informative and I could not devise anything better. Also made minor alterations to 6 as it was misleading: "indicates continuing action" implicates a progressive action, which is not the case here. I still would like to move [6] over to the て entry as another reading.
Anyhow, as justification for the new sense a few sentence fragments:
”あと十人で終わる” = "Will end/(after) in ten (more) people"
"五分ですべてを話す" = "Speak everything in/within 5 minutes"
"一回で済む" = "Settle/end in one instance"
”五人で行く” = "Go in five (people)"
The existing senses cannot properly account for these uses in the manner they are currently distributed and explained, they could be overhauled but I think this use is sufficiently distinct to warrant another sense. |
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Diff: |
@@ -30,0 +31,6 @@
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<s_inf>quantifies limits of action; e.g. time spanned, instances, number of participants, etc.</s_inf>
+<gloss>within</gloss>
+<gloss>in</gloss>
+</sense>
+<sense>
@@ -37 +43,2 @@
-<pos>&aux;</pos>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
@@ -41 +48 @@
-<s_inf>indicates continuing action; alternative form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf>
+<s_inf>forms conjunction, compound verb or connects auxiliary; alternative form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf> |
| 14. |
A 2019-03-21 05:45:23 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Diff: |
@@ -39 +39 @@
-<s_inf>indicates continuing action; alternate form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf>
+<s_inf>indicates continuing action; alternative form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf> |
| 13. |
A* 2019-03-07 23:03:14 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
"note-ifying." I'm not sure sense 5 belongs in here. |
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Diff: |
@@ -14,2 +14 @@
-<s_inf>にて is the formal literary form</s_inf>
-<gloss>indicates location of action</gloss>
+<s_inf>indicates location of action; にて is the formal literary form</s_inf>
@@ -21 +20,3 @@
-<gloss>indicates time of action</gloss>
+<s_inf>indicates time of action</s_inf>
+<gloss>at</gloss>
+<gloss>when</gloss>
@@ -25,2 +26 @@
-<gloss>indicates means of action</gloss>
-<gloss>cause of effect</gloss>
+<s_inf>indicates means of action</s_inf>
@@ -27,0 +28 @@
+<gloss>with</gloss>
@@ -38,2 +39,3 @@
-<s_inf>alternate form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf>
-<gloss>indicates continuing action</gloss>
+<s_inf>indicates continuing action; alternate form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf>
+<gloss>and</gloss>
+<gloss>then</gloss>
@@ -45 +47 @@
-<s_inf>at sentence-end</s_inf>
+<s_inf>at sentence-end; indicates certainty, emphasis, etc.</s_inf>
@@ -47 +49,2 @@
-<gloss>indicates certainty, emphasis, etc.</gloss>
+<gloss>let me tell you</gloss>
+<gloss>don't you know</gloss> |
| 12. |
A 2015-04-07 07:35:41 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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| 11. |
A* 2015-03-15 07:56:23 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Proposing merger of にて. See discussion on 2039380. |
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Diff: |
@@ -7,0 +8,4 @@
+<r_ele>
+<reb>にて</reb>
+<re_pri>spec1</re_pri>
+</r_ele>
@@ -9,0 +14 @@
+<s_inf>にて is the formal literary form</s_inf>
@@ -29,0 +35 @@
+<stagr>で</stagr>
@@ -35,0 +42 @@
+<stagr>で</stagr> |
| 10. |
A 2015-01-20 06:20:37 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I agree. That sort of thing is more relevant to a dictionary of grammar and usage. |
| 9. |
A* 2015-01-14 15:19:55 Marcus Richert <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I don't think で itself in that sentence has any meaning
beyond "is". You could say "Carl being Carl" in English
for example.
That said, I think "is" could be more explicitly define.
I mean just like with the -て form there's a suggestion
of causality/time but basically, doesn't it mean "is x,
and..." rather than just "and then"? |
| 8. |
A* 2015-01-13 09:57:01
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Refs: |
https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/21167 |
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Comments: |
this entry probably should have ~は~で (also ~も~で) but I'm unsure how to phrase it |
| 7. |
A 2012-06-12 06:11:51 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 6. |
A 2012-06-09 06:24:23 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
please use proper notes when appropriate |
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Diff: |
@@ -38,0 +38,1 @@
+<s_inf>at sentence-end</s_inf>
@@ -39,1 +40,1 @@
-<gloss>(at sentence end) indicates certainty, emphasis, etc.</gloss>
+<gloss>indicates certainty, emphasis, etc.</gloss> |
| 5. |
A* 2012-05-31 11:45:15
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Comments: |
not really used for request in the same way as よ
○「来てよ」 ×「来てで」 |
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Diff: |
@@ -39,1 +39,1 @@
-<gloss>(at sentence end) indicates certainty, emphasis, contempt, request, etc.</gloss>
+<gloss>(at sentence end) indicates certainty, emphasis, etc.</gloss> |
| 4. |
A* 2012-05-31 08:42:22 Marcus
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Refs: |
大阪弁普及会
"そうやで" 504,000 results
etc. |
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Diff: |
@@ -35,0 +35,6 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&prt;</pos>
+<xref type="see" seq="2029090">よ・1</xref>
+<dial>&ksb;</dial>
+<gloss>(at sentence end) indicates certainty, emphasis, contempt, request, etc.</gloss>
+</sense> |
| 3. |
A 2011-08-22 00:50:49 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
adding a note |
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Diff: |
@@ -32,0 +32,1 @@
+<s_inf>alternate form of 〜て used for some verb types</s_inf> |
| 2. |
A* 2011-08-22 00:28:13 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
Matching 2654270. |
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Diff: |
@@ -29,0 +29,8 @@
+<sense>
+<pos>&aux;</pos>
+<xref type="see" seq="2654270">て</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2654270">て</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2654270">て</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2654270">て</xref>
+<gloss>indicates continuing action</gloss>
+</sense> |
| 1. |
A 2005-03-05 00:00:00
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Comments: |
Entry created |