| 16. |
A 2025-08-19 08:41:03 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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I guess we can close this now. |
| 15. |
A* 2025-08-12 08:51:12 Sombrero1
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> The usage is the same: they are all semantically equivalent - they negate; and also syntactically equivalent [...]
> Yes, I wasn't very clear on the fact that I was talking about the "character", i.e. connotation.
After mulling this over for a bit, I think I'll drop it. It's most likely easier for everyone involved if we stick with your superset approach.
I was attempting to extract a "general connotation" from the references, that being "文章的".
"So, do we describe it according to its use in dialects which have the sheer numbers, or according to the standard tongue which bears the heavier weight and is the most sought after?"
> this does hit the nail on its head, yes. It's really both or neither.
In any case, thanks for the discussion.
This is it from my side then |
| 14. |
A* 2025-08-07 21:53:37 Non
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Comments: |
Ironically, the first three references exhibit exactly what I was talking of: Daijiring speaks of its aged and literary disposition, Shinsen highlights its use in dialects while Sankoku says it sounds theatrical - three quite different descriptions, and none of them wrong.
"I think it can be said that usage of ない and usage of ぬ・ん (and their respective connotations), in standard Japanese, are different."
The usage is the same: they are all semantically equivalent - they negate; and also syntactically equivalent in terms of their distribution against verbs with the one exception of the great サ変未然形 incident of 99.
I do realise your concern is elsewhere, but more on that later.
"A learner that encounters ぬ・ん and happens to see this entry may surmise that he can just use ぬ in ない's stead, since they would both be unmarked entries."
Well, they can. The interlocutor *will* wonder what kind of wacky textbook they have been learning from; but due to the above-mentioned equivalences, they will be fully understood and produce a completely grammatical sentence.
Besides, a learner is unlikely to actively use ぬ・ん as they will be coerced into using ない both by the fact that they are likely already being taught to do so by whatever material they are using beyond this dictionary, and by stimulus from actual standard Japanese. I personally think this is of least concern.
"Furthermore, I believe that the widespread dialectal usage of ん instead of ない cannot be as easily dismissed, as it spans large parts of the country."
I understand your position: we can neither apply every tag at once nor write a colossal note explaining every detail - but surely we can list that which is most common and/or important.
Normally I would heartily agree with that, the obstacle is that in this case none of the many flavours ぬs or んs are particularly uncommon or rare to find (except maybe informal/colloquial ぬ).
A very good example is precisely the dialectal ん: in absolute numbers, I would wager it might be the most numerous instance of ん... but I would also wager that it is not the most prevalent ん within the limits of standard Japanese, even when you disregard ません.
So, do we describe it according to its use in dialects which have the sheer numbers, or according to the standard tongue which bears the heavier weight and is the most sought after?
One could make an argument for either or both - I am opting for neither.
This situation can be spoken of in analogy to the many groups personal pronouns: e.g. わたし、おれ、ぼく and わたくし all intersect in being first person pronouns - at their core function - but each undeniably attributes a very distinct personality to the referent and/or atmosphere of the context in which they are employed.
This is the same with ぬ・ん, and constitutes the differences from ない that you spoke of previously - not in function or meaning, but in "character".
That as it may be, where ぬ and ん differ from the pronouns is that while the connotations of each pronoun are largely cast in stone according to the word itself, the exact character attributed to the speaker (and/or atmosphere) by ぬ・ん is not so, and varies wildly according to the setting.
Since we can neither predict what setting they will be encountered in (and thus the "variant" the reader is looking at) and nor can we easily overcome the throes of weighing what should be indicated and what is to be omitted, I say: the negatives ぬ・ん are the superset which includes the archaic negatives ぬ・ん, the dialectal negatives ぬ・ん, the frozen (in set expressions) negatives ぬ・ん... et cetera; so we might as well just go with one-size-fits-all.
If it seems I skipped anything, it is because the previous draft of this response was roughly twice the size and something had to go. |
| 13. |
A* 2025-08-04 17:08:44 Sombrero1
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ぬ
Daijirin's footnote as well: 「ぬ」はやや古風な言い方や書き言葉的なものに用いられる。
Shinsen: 口語では、「ない」が一般的。「ぬ(ん)」は方言でも使われる。
Sankoku: 「信じられぬ!」のように、話しことばで使うと、芝居(しばい)がかった重々しい感じが出る。
Oukoku: 主として文章語の打ち消しに用いられる
Daijisen: 打消しの助動詞は、共通語においては「ない」を用いるのが普通で、「ます」に続く「ん」以外の「ぬ(ん)」は、主に文語的表現や慣用句的表現に使われるだけであるが、関西を中心とする西部の方言では「ぬ(ん)」が広く用いられる。連用形「ん」は「んで」「んでも」の形で用いられる。
Nikkoku: [...]現代の書きことば的また慣用的な表現に使われているもの。現代の話しことばでは、「ません」の場合を除いて打消にはふつう「ない」が用いられる。ただし、本州中部以西では話しことばでも「ぬ」を使うことが多い。
(The last part of nikkoku's note describes what is depicted in the map down below.
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Firstly, I realize that "colloquial in standard Japanese" for ん is not very helpful since ません is where a learner will most likely first encounter ん, that not being colloquial usage at all. Hence me just suggesting it rather than editing the entry.
I also do not believe that there is a certain stiffly defined difference, that is rarely the case.
Without getting into all the context examples you have listed, which are reasonable but beyond the scope of a simple dictionary entry, I think it can be said that usage of ない and usage of ぬ・ん (and their respective connotations), in standard Japanese, are different. Multiple references outline this fact in their notes for ぬ.
A learner that encounters ぬ・ん and happens to see this entry may surmise that he can just use ぬ in ない's stead, since they would both be unmarked entries.
I think it can also be said that ん is at least in some respect a "lesser" form of ぬ, as it usually the case with contracted or abbreviated forms (apart from ません).
Furthermore, I believe that the widespread dialectal usage of ん instead of ない cannot be as easily dismissed, as it spans large parts of the country.
I certainly do not wish to make that fact the focal point of this entry, but in my eyes it would be somewhat disingenious to completely disregard it if we already include ん.
Thus I would personally like for this entry to, in one way or another, include information regarding the やや古風・文章的 aspect (especially of ぬ), and the dialectal aspect of ん specifically.
As per the visible dichotomy of ない・ん in the 方言地図 on 否定助動詞, in which ぬ plays a rather marginal role.
This being the main reason I proposed a separate sense for ん.
Perhaps this could be done by having the first sense unrestricted and the second like in my proposal down below, this is obviously contingent on the way my ideas are received in general. |
| 12. |
A* 2025-08-03 18:19:17 Non
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Refs: |
Daijirin's entry for ん is in fact just a brief redirect to the entry on ぬ: 「(助動)〔打ち消しの助動詞「ぬ」の転〕」
And ぬ's entry in question lists its paradigm as: 「(助動)○・ず・ぬ(ん)・ぬ(ん)・ね・○」
Also, the relevant footnotes: 「「ぬ」の終止形・連体形は話し言葉では「ん」の形で用いられることが多い。特に助動詞「ます」に付くときは、「ません」のように「ん」の形が一般に用いられる。」 |
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Comments: |
They are interchangeable in practice and I personally do not think it worthwhile to distinguish ぬ from ん; I find the differences in between them are not sufficient or consistent enough to warrant another sense - it is purely a matter of style and is not so stiffly defined; with the exception of ぬ never really being just colloquial (at least as far as I know, maybe there is a dialect somewhere), whether ぬ or ん are seen as formal, colloquial, dated or even as archaisms depends heavily on the context in which they are encountered: Old-fashioned literature pulling out all the old conjugations and auxiliaries? Archaisms. Co-occurs with an honorific? Formal or both formal and dated (ません vs ませぬ). Taking a stroll over the 近畿 region? Colloquial. Grandpa uses it and nobody else does? Dated colloquial... etc. |
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(show/hide 11 older log entries)
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| 11. |
A* 2025-08-03 15:47:05 Sombrero1
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Shinsen, Sankoku
Smk for ん: 〔文章語では一部の慣用表現にしか用いられず、もっぱら口頭語として用いられる〕
Sankoku for ん: 終止形・連体形しかない。西日本などの方言では「わからんかった」のように連用形「んかっ」があり、特に若い世代では「わからんくて」のように連用形「んく」もある。
方言文法全国地図:否定助動詞(書かない)
https://www2.ninjal.ac.jp/takoni/map_archives/takoni_GAJ2-80_kakanai.pdf |
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Another case where reading [misc] tags would be useful.
I certainly feel like ん should be together with ぬ, rather than with the other ん senses, but I fear it gets very messy to try and include its sense info into this entry's single sense.
Perhaps we should have a surface form specific split in this entry. It wouldn't outright violate the 2/3 rule, and dialect specific information could be incorporated.
I think either that or a separate "closely tied" entry would be best, having it lumped together with all the other ん doesn't serve it right IMO.
Though I doubt we have a dialect tag able to encompass the magnitude of ん negation usage, would probably also go into the note.
Removing [suf], adding [form]
Maybe something like this?
[1][aux-v][form][ぬ]
[note="after the -nai stem of a verb and for サ変 as せ~ぬ (all senses)"]
not
[see=2257550・ない[1]]
[2][aux-v][ん]
[note="used instead of ない in western Japanese dialects; colloquial in standard Japanese"]
not
[see=2257550・ない[1]] |
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Diff: |
@@ -12 +11,0 @@
-<pos>&suf;</pos> |
| 10. |
A* 2025-08-03 13:35:53 Non
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Comments: |
Aligning the note with the ず entry; also proposing that we add ん to readings instead of having it on a separate entry. |
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Diff: |
@@ -6,0 +7,3 @@
+<r_ele>
+<reb>ん</reb>
+</r_ele>
@@ -11 +14 @@
-<s_inf>after the -nai stem of a verb</s_inf>
+<s_inf>after the -nai stem of a verb and for サ変 as せ~ぬ(ん)</s_inf> |
| 9. |
A 2024-04-27 00:12:05 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
I don't think the extra part of the note is needed. |
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Diff: |
@@ -11 +11 @@
-<s_inf>after the -nai stem of a verb; negates verbs in non-past tense</s_inf>
+<s_inf>after the -nai stem of a verb</s_inf> |
| 8. |
A* 2024-04-20 02:43:50 Non
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Comments: |
A Consideration that occurred when editing the entry for させる, using -nai stem for the usage note in this verb will most likely lead the reader to incorrectly believe that it connects to する as しぬ, rather than せぬ.
Perhaps the term -nai stem for this entry should be replaced with 未然形, though that makes it ambiguous as 五段 have お and あ and サ変 have さ、し、せ and arguably しょ.
Maybe changing it to "after せ~ form of suru class verbs or -nai stem of other verbs; negates verbs in non-past tense" would address the issue? |
| 7. |
A* 2024-04-19 04:17:18 Non
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daijs, daijr |
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Comments: |
Removing 2 as it should be its own entry: they have different meanings, conjugation paradigms and etymologies; added note to better describe function.
Questioning: Is the suffix tag on auxiliaries that formally connect a to verb stem and are never added after nouns/nominals necessary?
Looking at the definition for 接尾語 in daijs, meikyo and daijr, the defining characteristic of a 接尾語 seems to be whether or not they can be attached directly to 体言 or things applicable to them(such as the root of an adjective or adjectival verb).
For example, the 助動詞 らしい is listed as connecting to the 終止形 of adjectives and verbs as well as to 体言 in both daijs and daijr, but the らしい registered as a 接尾語 says only「名詞・副詞,または形容動詞の語幹などに付いて...」(Note: quote is from daijr which does not nominally cite adjective roots but daijs does).
It is possible that a revision for the criteria for the suffix tag is in order. |
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Diff: |
@@ -11 +11 @@
-<s_inf>after the -nai stem of a verb</s_inf>
+<s_inf>after the -nai stem of a verb; negates verbs in non-past tense</s_inf>
@@ -13,6 +12,0 @@
-</sense>
-<sense>
-<pos>&aux-v;</pos>
-<pos>&suf;</pos>
-<misc>&arch;</misc>
-<gloss>indicates completion</gloss> |
| 6. |
A 2016-05-31 11:14:46 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
OK. |
| 5. |
A* 2016-05-31 03:14:15 Marcus Richert
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Comments: |
removing superfluous xref (rather than fixing it - it should
be [3] if my edit to ん goes through) |
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Diff: |
@@ -11,3 +10,0 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2210320">ません</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん・2</xref>
-<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん・2</xref> |
| 4. |
A 2015-05-14 22:47:27 Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
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| 3. |
A* 2015-05-14 20:57:48 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Diff: |
@@ -13,2 +13,2 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん・2</xref>
-<gloss>(after the -nai stem of a verb) not (verb-negating suffix)</gloss>
+<s_inf>after the -nai stem of a verb</s_inf>
+<gloss>not</gloss> |
| 2. |
A 2010-11-11 23:36:39 Rene Malenfant <...address hidden...>
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Comments: |
ず doesn't exist yet |
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Diff: |
@@ -10,1 +10,1 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2257550">ない・1</xref>
@@ -12,2 +12,1 @@
-<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん</xref>
-<xref type="see">ず</xref>
+<xref type="see" seq="2139720">ん・2</xref> |
| 1. |
A 2009-04-10 00:00:00
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Comments: |
Entry created |