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jmdict 2029040 Active (id: 2343812)

[spec1]
1. [prt,conj]
▶ if ... then
▶ when
2. [prt,conj]
《often ...も...ば...も...》
▶ and
3. [prt]
《sentence final》
▶ why don't you ...?
4. [prt,conj]
《often ...ば...ほど》
▶ the more (one does something)
5. [prt,conj] [arch]
▶ because
▶ since



History:
15. A 2025-07-11 01:33:29  Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
  Comments:
I yield.
14. A* 2025-07-10 16:18:58  Sombrero1
  Refs:
Every kokugo: 〔接続助詞〕
DOJG: "A conjunction which indicates that the preceding clause expresses a conditional"
JMdict's own entry for 接続助詞: "conjunction particle (e.g. "ba", "kara", "keredo", "nagara")"

.
  Comments:
I very much agree with what non has said previously, ば is both a particle and a conjunction. It would be inconsistent both with other entries like けど, けれど and with every major reference, to dismiss this. I think non has sufficiently explained why this should have [conj] tag (apart from sense three)
  Diff:
@@ -9,0 +10 @@
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
@@ -14,0 +16 @@
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
@@ -24,0 +27 @@
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
@@ -29,0 +33 @@
+<pos>&conj;</pos>
13. A 2025-07-10 06:46:44  Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
  Diff:
@@ -21 +21 @@
-<gloss>why don't you...?</gloss>
+<gloss>why don't you ...?</gloss>
12. A 2024-07-07 07:55:14  Jim Breen <...address hidden...>
11. A* 2024-05-03 07:33:46  Non
  Refs:
I did not think any references would be needed, It is formally classified as a 接続助詞 just about everywhere: daijs, daijr, smk, meikyo, koj...
  Comments:
ば's primordial function is to connect two clauses, clause A to clause B, where A is in some manner precedent to B, this should be in line with the citation you have just provided of a conjunction. 

Additionally, I do not see how these definitions would - or even could - be mutually exclusive: every single conjunction has a grammatical aspect to it, it must always form a syntactically subordinating or coordinating relation in between the two linked items; dismissing [3] as an omission of clause B, and with the potential exclusion of [2], ば falls into the former type.
I must also bring to attention that the definition of a conjunction provided is vague and potentially problematic, for example: how does it deal with a coordinating conjunction between two nouns? ”僕と君と...”or anything following the same structure will be constituted of two words that are not particularly large units of meaning, certainly not clauses, and I do not think most would consider each a phrase. Would と cease to be a conjunction? would also または or および? This is not limited to Japanese either, you can just as easily take "Me and you..." and the same problem arises.

Lastly, not classifying ば as a conjunction makes the corpus inconsistent: other terms formally classified as 接続助詞 such as と, けれども and its variants have both [conj] and [prt] on their entries; notably, なら and たら both directly derive from ば and are classed as [conj] (though the former's entry is itself a tad inconsistent).
Now, as the meaning does not change even in their original forms of ならば and たらば, if ば is not a conjunction, what is it? or rather, if it is not, how are they?
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