<entry id="2307002" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>1364920</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>神様</keb>
<ke_pri>ichi1</ke_pri>
<ke_pri>news1</ke_pri>
<ke_pri>nf10</ke_pri>
</k_ele>
<k_ele>
<keb>神さま</keb>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>かみさま</reb>
<re_pri>ichi1</re_pri>
<re_pri>news1</re_pri>
<re_pri>nf10</re_pri>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<misc>&hon;</misc>
<gloss>God</gloss>
<gloss>god</gloss>
<gloss>deity</gloss>
<gloss>divinity</gloss>
<gloss>spirit</gloss>
<gloss>kami</gloss>
</sense>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<gloss>ace</gloss>
<gloss>king</gloss>
<gloss>superior person</gloss>
<gloss>god (amongst men)</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2015-04-11 13:47:29" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Johan Råde</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>Frequencies according to the Leeds Corpus (http://corpus.leeds.ac.uk/list.html)
神様 25.42
神さま 4.30</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -8,0 +9,3 @@
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;神さま&lt;/keb&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2015-04-11 20:50:20" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2016-01-11 04:35:49" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>perhaps added here or in a separate entry.  the 神さん headword needs to be taken care of as well</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>nikk
かみ‐さん 【神様】</upd_refs>
</audit>
<audit time="2016-01-27 02:35:34" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Here, I think.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>G n-grams:
神さん	105212
神様	5274193
神さま	506349</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -12,0 +13,3 @@
+&lt;k_ele&gt;
+&lt;keb&gt;神さん&lt;/keb&gt;
+&lt;/k_ele&gt;
@@ -14,0 +18,2 @@
+&lt;re_restr&gt;神様&lt;/re_restr&gt;
+&lt;re_restr&gt;神さま&lt;/re_restr&gt;
@@ -17,0 +23,5 @@
+&lt;/r_ele&gt;
+&lt;r_ele&gt;
+&lt;reb&gt;かみさん&lt;/reb&gt;
+&lt;re_restr&gt;神様&lt;/re_restr&gt;
+&lt;re_restr&gt;神さん&lt;/re_restr&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-01-27 08:42:15" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_refs>chujiten daij</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -30,0 +31 @@
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
@@ -32,0 +34,6 @@
+&lt;sense&gt;
+&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
+&lt;gloss g_type="fig"&gt;god&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;ace&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;king&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;/sense&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-01-27 18:10:51" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>is this addition needed?  the figurative sense is identical in both languages</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-01-27 20:56:26" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I think we should always be explicit, esp. 
when other dictionaries are. Users shouldn't 
have to guess whether or not a figurative use 
in English carries over into Japanese or not 
(many times it doesn't!)</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-01-31 05:32:01" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>yeah, i don't really agree with that.  i'm a firm believer that we don't have to assume that our users are mindless and we don't need to spoon-feed them every little thing
-
also, if it's going to be indicated that "god" is figurative here, shouldn't it also be indicated that "ace" (lit meaning = 1) and "king" (lit meaning = royalty) are also being used figuratively here.  and then a [lit] indicator might as well be added to sense 1.
-
or just eliminate the mess, and gloss the entire entry with one sense as "God;god"</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-01-31 06:58:36" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>[fig] on "god" is a little unsightly, sure. 
_
I guess in a wa-ei, it makes sense to just have the one 
"God" sense because when you're looking it up in 
context, it'll be obvious if the usage is figurative or 
not. But there are other use cases of a wa-ei as well. 
Say somebody is writing in Japanese and wants to make 
sure the word they just used carries the same 
connotations in Japanese as in English. As for this 
particular word, it's conceivable that using "God" in a 
non-religious setting could be offensive, or considered 
slang or whatever. Obviously it'd make the most sense to 
look it up in a kokugo, but not everybody learning 
Japanese can yet read one.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -36 +36 @@
-&lt;gloss g_type="fig"&gt;god&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;god&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-02-07 02:23:06" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Just trying to make sense 2 a little plainer.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -38,0 +39 @@
+&lt;gloss&gt;superior person&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-02-07 22:13:02" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Proposing that 神さん is split out. Only nikk has 様 for 
さん - daij both just say "〔「さま（様）」の転〕". We don't 
normally include 様 for さん in other entries either.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -13,3 +12,0 @@
-&lt;k_ele&gt;
-&lt;keb&gt;神さん&lt;/keb&gt;
-&lt;/k_ele&gt;
@@ -18,2 +14,0 @@
-&lt;re_restr&gt;神様&lt;/re_restr&gt;
-&lt;re_restr&gt;神さま&lt;/re_restr&gt;
@@ -23,5 +17,0 @@
-&lt;/r_ele&gt;
-&lt;r_ele&gt;
-&lt;reb&gt;かみさん&lt;/reb&gt;
-&lt;re_restr&gt;神様&lt;/re_restr&gt;
-&lt;re_restr&gt;神さん&lt;/re_restr&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-02-07 22:16:58" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I don't think it only refers to the Christian God</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>daij</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -22,0 +23 @@
+&lt;gloss&gt;god&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-02-07 22:40:39" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Hm. I should point out I did find a handful of entries 
in daijr which are read -さん but given as -様, namely 
いとさん【愛様・幼様】 (ksb) 
はばかりさん【憚り様】(ksb)
てきさん【敵様】(arch) (also in daijs)
I still think we should split though because -様 for 
-さん is definitely archaic and only relatively modern in 
ksb, at best. It's a strenuous connection for a merge 
esp. as it's in nikk alone - we don't merge entries 
based on nikk's lack of okurigana, for example.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-02-07 22:42:48" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_diff>@@ -27 +27 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;god&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;god (amongst men)&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2018-02-08 00:56:55" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'll be more comfortable if "god" doesn't lead sense 2, as it doesn't mean a deity.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -27 +26,0 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;god (amongst men)&lt;/gloss&gt;
@@ -30,0 +30 @@
+&lt;gloss&gt;god (amongst men)&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-07-16 14:56:42" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Cuddlecreeper8</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>The concept of Kami-sama is very different from the idea of a god, see reference 1.
I think that these meanings are so different that it deserves a separate entry for its English definition, the 3rd paragraph of the 1st reference makes clear that the concepts are different. 
For context, Kokugakuin is one of the main places where Shintō clergy are trained.

Additionally, within English language Shintō communities 神様 is not translated but instead transliterated.
A Shintō priestess has also stated that 神様 should not be translated in the context of Shintō, see reference 2 paragraph 12</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=9958
https://www.livingwithkami.com/cores</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -18,0 +19,7 @@
+&lt;sense&gt;
+&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
+&lt;field&gt;&amp;Shinto;&lt;/field&gt;
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;Kami-sama&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;kami&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;/sense&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-07-17 09:56:07" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'm not sure it warrants an extra sense, as it's really sense 1 in a Shinto context. Maybe this works.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -21,7 +20,0 @@
-&lt;field&gt;&amp;Shinto;&lt;/field&gt;
-&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;Kami-sama&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;kami&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;/sense&gt;
-&lt;sense&gt;
-&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
@@ -37,0 +31,8 @@
+&lt;/sense&gt;
+&lt;sense&gt;
+&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
+&lt;field&gt;&amp;Shinto;&lt;/field&gt;
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;Kami-sama&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;resident of the Plain of High Heaven&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;one above&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-07-19 15:06:34" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Cuddlecreeper8</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Kami-sama does not mean "resident of the Plain of High Heaven" or "one above"
These were the claims/beliefs of Inbe no Masamichi who relied on the fact that 上 and 神 can both be read as かみ. 
The Kokugakuin page (reference 1) explains that these readings have seperate etymologies and were pronounced differently in the past, invalidating Inbe no Masamichi's claims.

Additionally there are many earthly Kami so defining Kami-sama as those in Takama-no-Hara doesn't make much sense.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=9958</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -26,0 +27,7 @@
+&lt;field&gt;&amp;Shinto;&lt;/field&gt;
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;Kami-sama&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;kami&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;/sense&gt;
+&lt;sense&gt;
+&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
@@ -31,8 +37,0 @@
-&lt;/sense&gt;
-&lt;sense&gt;
-&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
-&lt;field&gt;&amp;Shinto;&lt;/field&gt;
-&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;Kami-sama&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;resident of the Plain of High Heaven&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;one above&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-07-20 03:12:24" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Having a sense in which the "meaning" is simply the Romanization of the reading doesn't work. If a meaningful Shinto-oriented explanation is not possible, then it is better to rely on sense 1, as do the JEs.
I'll approve this to reduce the queue then reopen for a short time.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>GG5, etc.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -24,7 +23,0 @@
-&lt;/sense&gt;
-&lt;sense&gt;
-&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
-&lt;field&gt;&amp;Shinto;&lt;/field&gt;
-&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;Kami-sama&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;kami&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-07-20 03:12:38" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-07-20 16:00:06" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>stephen</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Stephen Kraus</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Maybe it wouldn't hurt to add some more glosses from our entry for 神.
If we do want to add Shinto-specific glosses to explain "kami" in that context, it might be better to put them in that entry.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>The kokugo entries for 神様 describe the first sense as simply an honorific form of かみ【神】.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -23,0 +24,4 @@
+&lt;gloss&gt;deity&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;divinity&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;spirit&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;kami&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2024-07-20 21:35:06" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Yes, the 神 entry might be a better place.</upd_detl>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>