<entry id="2221931" stat="A" corpus="jmdict" type="jmdict">
<ent_corp type="jmdict">jmdict</ent_corp>
<ent_seq>1442650</ent_seq>
<k_ele>
<keb>殿様</keb>
<ke_pri>news1</ke_pri>
<ke_pri>nf22</ke_pri>
</k_ele>
<r_ele>
<reb>とのさま</reb>
<re_pri>news1</re_pri>
<re_pri>nf22</re_pri>
</r_ele>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<misc>&hon;</misc>
<gloss>nobleman</gloss>
<gloss>dignitary</gloss>
<gloss>lord</gloss>
</sense>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<xref type="see" seq="1415080">大名</xref>
<misc>&hist;</misc>
<misc>&hon;</misc>
<gloss>feudal lord (of the Edo period)</gloss>
<gloss>daimyo</gloss>
</sense>
<sense>
<pos>&n;</pos>
<gloss>man brought up away from the world</gloss>
<gloss>arrogant man with little knowledge of the ways of the world</gloss>
</sense>
<info>
<audit time="2012-11-14 15:10:49" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_refs>daijs (敬称)</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -16,0 +16,2 @@
+&lt;xref type="see" seq="1415080"&gt;大名&lt;/xref&gt;
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
@@ -17,0 +19,1 @@
+&lt;gloss&gt;daimyo&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2012-11-16 10:03:15" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-11-25 13:41:40" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>would be great if we had the [hist] tag for both senses here</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>daij
one more figurative sense that should probably be added too but I don't have the time right now.</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -15,0 +16,8 @@
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;lord&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;nobleman&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;dignitary&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;master&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;/sense&gt;
+&lt;sense&gt;
+&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
@@ -18 +26 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;feudal lord&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;feudal lord (Edo period)&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-11-26 17:46:50" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>based only on the english glosses, the distinction between sense 1 and sense 2 is not entirely clear IMO.  it's supported by the kokugos, but gg5 combines those senses.  for the remaining sense, gg5 offers "a man brought up away from the world".  koj suggests "an arrogant man with little knowledge of the ways of the world" or similar.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-12-10 06:52:39" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>[I've kept looking at this, then finding it a bit much, but it needs to be addressed.]
Like Rene, I really struggle to see a useful difference in these senses. I think it's best to combine them, as in GG5, and instead include the GG5/Koj second sense.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -15,0 +16 @@
+&lt;xref type="see" seq="1415080"&gt;大名&lt;/xref&gt;
@@ -18,0 +20 @@
+&lt;gloss&gt;daimyo&lt;/gloss&gt;
@@ -24,4 +26,2 @@
-&lt;xref type="see" seq="1415080"&gt;大名&lt;/xref&gt;
-&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;feudal lord (Edo period)&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;daimyo&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;man brought up away from the world&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;arrogant man with little knowledge of the ways of the world&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-12-11 02:19:38" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
</audit>
<audit time="2019-12-11 08:49:30" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>There's a difference between "tonosama" of the Heian period and "tonosama" in the Edo period. In the Heian period, a "tonosama" is 
any person part of the nobility, while in the Edo period, it's a daimyo. I think "daimyo/feudal lord" and "nobleman" are two quite 
distinct senses that should be kept apart.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -20 +19,0 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;daimyo&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-01-07 19:17:02" stat="A">
<upd_uid>rene</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Rene Malenfant</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>there's also a difference between a nobleman and a lord and a dignitary and a master in english.  but they've all ended up in one sense.  we regularly combine glosses that have slightly different meanings.

the question isn't whether there's a difference; it's whether the difference between the japanese senses is big enough to warrant splitting given that in english the two senses are highly similar

gg5 combines the former sense 1 &amp; sense 2 into a single sense, which--given the similarity of the glosses and the difficulty in telling them apart--seems perfectly reasonable to me (and Jim per earlier comments)

in any case, this entry has been open for about a month with no further comment, so i'm closing it off for now.  restoring "feudal lord" to sense 1 as per gg5 and restoring "daimyo"</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -21,0 +22,2 @@
+&lt;gloss&gt;feudal lord&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;daimyo&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-01-08 02:35:11" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>I'm going to reopen this. There's a big difference between being a 1) nobleman - a person part of the nobility who in most cases held 
little power, and 2) being a "powerful Japanese feudal lord" who "ruled most of Japan from their vast, hereditary land holdings" (enwiki). 
The meaning is different enough to qualify splitting in both Japanese and English. If the two meanings in English look too similar, that 
can be handled by making them more different

This isn't some obscure little historical issue but the word is used with both meanings today. If somebody looked up the use of "tonosama" 
in hyakunin isshu decks (for one example of contemporary use of the word in the Heian sense meaning) and walked away with the 
understanding that the "tonosama" cards of those decks depict "powerful feudal lords", then we've done them a disservice.</upd_detl>
<upd_refs>daij nikk</upd_refs>
<upd_diff>@@ -15,0 +16,7 @@
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hon;&lt;/misc&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;nobleman&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;dignitary&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;lord&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;/sense&gt;
+&lt;sense&gt;
+&lt;pos&gt;&amp;n;&lt;/pos&gt;
@@ -18,5 +25 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;lord&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;nobleman&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;dignitary&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;master&lt;/gloss&gt;
-&lt;gloss&gt;feudal lord&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;feudal lord (of the Edo period)&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2020-02-06 04:05:13" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>OK. I'm happy to leave this how it is now.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -26 +26 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;daimyo&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;daimyō&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-08 10:28:13" stat="A" unap="true">
<upd_uid>Marcus</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Marcus Richert</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>or arch?</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -24 +24 @@
-&lt;xref type="see" seq="1415080"&gt;大名&lt;/xref&gt;
+&lt;misc&gt;&amp;hist;&lt;/misc&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-01-08 20:41:07" stat="A">
<upd_uid>jwb</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Jim Breen</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>OK as is.</upd_detl>
</audit>
<audit time="2023-02-15 16:28:53" stat="A">
<upd_uid>robin1354</upd_uid>
<upd_name>Robin Scott</upd_name>
<upd_email>...address hidden...</upd_email>
<upd_detl>Style alignment.</upd_detl>
<upd_diff>@@ -27 +27 @@
-&lt;gloss&gt;daimyō&lt;/gloss&gt;
+&lt;gloss&gt;daimyo&lt;/gloss&gt;</upd_diff>
</audit>
</info>
</entry>