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Re: [edict-jmdict] adj-i/adj-ix revisited - closure?



Hi.

It's been a long time, so I forget some of the details of this... But if I recall, my argument was that we should follow the kokugos in acknowledging that--contrary to what various Introduction to Japanese books for foreigners say about よくない being the negative form of いい--いい really only has 終止 and 連体形 forms, and therefore いい itself never actually changes form (hence it gets a different PoS to indicate its irregular lack of inflection: adj-ix).  It's only よい that inflects (as a regular adj-i).  いい is simply an alternate pronunciation for よい that applies only when it is specifically in its よい form.  So:
  • よい = adj-i (regular i-adjective)
  • いい = adj-ix ("special" i-adjective)

I still think that is the technically correct stance (and AFAIK all the Japanese dictionaries back that up, although I haven't gone and checked again).

If we want to compromise and put them all in an [adj-ix] tag because the "technically correct" solution is too cumbersome or unsightly, I guess that's okay by me as long as:
  • The description of the [adj-ix] tag describes the technically correct stance as described by the kokugos.
  • The conjugation table for WWWJDIC does not incorrectly suggest that よくない is a conjugation of いい.


Rene



On Sep 17, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Jim Breen jimbreen@********* [edict-jmdict] <edict-jmdict@***************> wrote:

Back in 2014 I split the 〜良い and 〜いい adjectives into two
groups with adj-i and adj-ix POS tags respectively to reflect their
different inflection patterns. It actually made rather a mess and in
early 2018 we had a long discussion about how to resolve it. The
discussion fizzled out, and I left the バランスがいい entry sitting in
the edit queue as a reminder. I'd like to try and get it sorted out.

In our discussion we identified three options: (a) stay with the
present split, (b) make then all "adj-ix", (c) make them all "adj-i"
with a note and/or a "no-conj" tag for the 〜いい forms. On 6 March
2018 René Malenfant summarized and scored the options, then on 8
March Francis Bond made some extensive observations and rescored
them.

I've been re-reading of all the discussions and the back-and-forth proposals,
and I think the cleanest solution is to put them back together, with the
special "adj-ix" POS tag to indicate that collectively they behave differently
from the usual 形容詞. As Francis wrote: "I think it is better to acknowledge
this (situation) with a single special tag that encompasses both of them,
and we can add a complete description in one place, ..."

I just checked the entity tag labels in the DTD and they are:
<!ENTITY adj-i "adjective (keiyoushi)">
<!ENTITY adj-ix "adjective (keiyoushi) - yoi/ii class">
so if we take this approach nothing has to be changed there.

I know this approach is not everyone's preferred solution, but
I'd really like to see this one resolved. The main work will be to
put the ~100 entries back together. I'm prepared to do the legwork.

Reactions? Comments?

Jim

-- 
Jim Breen
Adjunct Snr Research Fellow, Japanese Studies Centre, Monash University
http://www.jimbreen.org/
http://nihongo.monash.edu/

-- 
Jim Breen
Adjunct Snr Research Fellow, Japanese Studies Centre, Monash University
http://www.jimbreen.org/
http://nihongo.monash.edu/