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Re: [edict-jmdict] Articulation of "suru" verbs
Re:
1) I just had a nice conversation with Paul regarding the separate entry
> of ai suru, and not just ai with a vs label. Speaking on behalf of a
> newcomer, with whom I can empathize, I believe that a separate entry
> of the noun + suru would be a worthwhile iteration of the Edict project.
In general, or in the case of 愛 and 愛する?
In the case of those, of course, there are two entries already:
愛 （あい） (n,n-suf) love; affection
愛する （あいする） (vs-s,vt) to love
Yes, of course, in general - as I have seen nicely done here with ai suru,
by exception only it seems. When I enquired as to why ai would warrant a
conjugation via suru, I was told that there was no set rule, ie "I dunno".
2) Doing all that for the ~11,000 "vs" entries is not a trivial task, and
it's
one that I have postponed until we get onto Stuart's database. I think we'll
need to do a programmed "first cut" and then have teams doing editorial
cleanups. I can't think of doing that in the present system.
I fully anticipated this response. As you may recall, I was the original
Prime Mover, ie Pain in the Butt, Esq. who ogled for, as I so acerbically
put it, "a proper database" in lieu of a "bunch of separate pages strung
together with C language." So, in short, I fully and completely understand
the need for a database - now and in the past.
3) BTW Dennis, can you do something about you mailer coding. Your postings
are arriving in ISO-8859-1 (i.e. European) coding with the Japanese
as Unicode codepoints in SGML entity coding. My browser applies the rules
strictly, and hence all I see is 〹, etc.
Not being at all reluctant to appear the Village Idiot, a role I play well
and even relish, I must respond that I don't really know anything about
coding. The last conversation I had about Unicode was about 15 years ago in
the office of Twinbridge (Jpn/Chi word processor). As for the various
flavors of coding, I am completly and refreshingly ignorant. The only
difference in my postings now is that I am using FF3 in lieu of IE8, both of
which I have installed. My postings usually consist of a cut and past from
the Edict dictionary or from MS Word, where I type in what I want for the
Jpn IME to convert into kana/kanji, and then paste it in my Gmail.
I did notice that you had a similar problem with Phil Ronan's email - as did
I. And now when I go back to my own post here on Gmail, I see your point
about the kana/kanji being "backed". Please do let me know what I can do to
rectify this problem, one that is a first for me and has occured with the
group only after switching to FF3.
Also, your use of "seriatim" I really appreciated. No sarcasm at all. I
really appreciate the allusion to Latin. In America, where our educational
system has been dumbed down to the point that No Child is ever Left Behind,
whatever that means, I really hunger to be amongst the educated. For me then
participation in this group is indeed "cathartic". So thanks again. And
please keep the Latin derivatives a'comin so I don't feel that my ability to
sight-read the Latin poets is not really a wasted skill. Hey, I live in a
country where people don't even know where Latin is actually spoken. Go
figure.
Regards,
Dennis
2008/9/10 Jim Breen <jimbreen@gmail.com>
> 2008/9/10 Dennis <jpnthailand@gmail.com <jpnthailand%40gmail.com>>:
>
> > I just had a nice conversation with Paul regarding the separate entry
> > of ai suru, and not just ai with a vs label. Speaking on behalf of a
> > newcomer, with whom I can empathize, I believe that a separate entry
> > of the noun + suru would be a worthwhile iteration of the Edict project.
>
> In general, or in the case of 愛 and 愛する?
>
> In the case of those, of course, there are two entries already:
>
> 愛 （あい） (n,n-suf) love; affection
> 愛する （あいする） (vs-s,vt) to love
>
> > Sometimes, though not always, the addition of suru produces a verb
> > that has a different analogue in English, ie ai suru, which has a
> > definitely physical or sexual connotation and is less broadly used
> > that "love" in English. For example, one would never say with ai suru
> > "I just loved that movie".
> >
> > Though it seems to be hitting below the belt, I might add that Yahoo,
> > Goo and Space/ALC all list the noun + suru separately with its own
> > definition. We could do that just as has been nicely done with 愛
> > 【あ
> > い】 (n,n-suf) (See 愛する) love; affection
> >
> > Any thoughts or reactions? (Everyone, please play nice, ok)
>
> I originally went for the "vs" tagging instead of having a separate ...する
> entry in order to save space. My intention is to expand the glosses to
> have the verbal ...する form spelt out. For example, we now have
>
> 勉強 【べんきょう】 (n,vs) (1) study; (2) diligence; (3) discount; reduction
>
> I'd like that to develop into something like:
>
> 勉強 【べんきょう】 (1) (n) study; (vs) to study; (2) (n) diligence; (3)
> (n) discount; reduction (vs) to sell at a discount; to discount.
>
> That's pretty much the way GG5 does it, for example, and all the 国語辞典
> I have also handle the する derivative within the main entry. I know Francis
> Bond is very keen to see such a break-out, and he has already done some
> work on possible programmed approaches.
>
> Doing all that for the ~11,000 "vs" entries is not a trivial task, and it's
> one that I have postponed until we get onto Stuart's database. I think
> we'll
> need to do a programmed "first cut" and then have teams doing editorial
> cleanups. I can't think of doing that in the present system.
>
> The exception to this is the "vs-s" class of single-kanji+する verbs. They
> are separated already, of course.
>
> BTW Dennis, can you do something about you mailer coding. Your postings
> are arriving in ISO-8859-1 (i.e. European) coding with the Japanese
> as Unicode codepoints in SGML entity coding. My browser applies the rules
> strictly, and hence all I see is 〹, etc.
>
> Cheers
>
> Jim
> --
> Jim Breen
> Honorary Senior Research Fellow
> Clayton School of Information Technology,
> Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/<http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/%7Ejwb/>
>
>